"politically correct"

[StAnkY]

i could have placed this in the flaming forum just as easy as here but wtf is the deal that over the past few years there is such a push for not offending non-christians, etc around christmas time?
i dont think anybody reserves the right to shove something under your nose but christ sake its getting ridiculous! i wish these pompus assholes who have issue with other people trying to share in one of the more positive times of the year would just shut themselves in until dec 26th. its funny how the line is drawn on interfering with christmas when it comes to retail. proof positive that most of it is backed behind some bleeding hearts trying to champion a new cause because they fall short on every other aspect of their miserble existence :stupid:

[Artis]

ok so christmas isnt about christ anymore. its about the profit margins of retailers and how many presents you give and whether or not you are spending too much or too little on whichever person because you dont want to make them feel guilty or slighted. its not about christ for the vast vast majority of americans whether they say they are christians or not. couple that with the fact that a large percentage of americans are not christians and dont celebrate christmas and things tend to boil.

i dont think its necessarily a problem about people celebrating christmas, its about excluding or ignoring any other winter celebration such as hannukah. (sp?) to me saying happy holidays is better because its wishing everyone well rather than saying merry christmas which might only apply to some people. i dont think it should be a huge deal either way but i see why people might have a problem with a big sign in front of a public or government building that says merry christmas and nothing else. the u.s. consolate or embassy or whatever in cuba has such a sign and i have a problem with that. from the sign it would appear that we have a national religion which we dont. christ isnt in christmas so maybe we should call it something else or maybe we should take away the emphasis on the buying frenzy. mal or jt, a good friend of mine told me on the phone the other night that it is the commercials like the lexus one with the big ass bow on the car when the husband gives the keys to his wife that makes christmas disgusting in many ways. wtf does that have to do with peace on earth and goodwill towards men? ya maybe it could be said it has to do with the spirit of giving but a lexus to your wife probably isnt what that means. maybe helping those less fortunate or giving to the poor is what the spirit of christmas and the spirit of giving are about.

its wrong for non-christians to freak out over the emphasis on "CHRISTMAS" but its also wrong for christians to ignore others who believe or celebrate differently. saying that we live in a christian country and those that dont feel the same as we do just need to lock themselves inside and just suck it up is wrong. if hannukah stuff was emblazoned over every noticable landmark or house or building and on tv and in stores and christmas wasnt mentioned the christians would be in an uproar. the same goes for ramaddon (sp?) or kwanza or whatever else.

[StAnkY]

its just aggrevating how it has became an issue in recent times when it never really was before. truely when you see something that you dont believe in all around you in public places would be unsettling but we all deal with that in some shape or form on a daily basis

[GRAAAAAA!!]

I totally agree with you stanky. Things are geting out of hand here. Why should christians have to bend over and bow down to every other religion in america? Its funny artist you talk about making things fair for other religions. Yet when you think about it. Chirstianity has been geting kicked out of everywhere these days. From christmas trees being kicked out of public bulidings. To christmas songs not being able to be song in school. Why should atheist be given more rights then christians. Maybe when atheist are the majority this would be ok. Although they are obviously not.

Also to stay on topic. I think What stanky is talking about is the fact that most people are using the term xmas, or happy holidays instead of merry christmas. I totally hate this PCness. Whats wrong with saying the word christ! Nothing. Why should atheist impose their non belif on us?

I think all people should beleive in what they want to. The most domanate religion wins.

[StAnkY]

thank you for filling in the blanks for me graaa. thats almost exactly what i meant by it

[Artis]

well this goes back to the whole separation of church and state. sings CHRISTmas songs in school can be seen as a religious activity. i dont think it really matters about christmas songs being sung there but i see the point. graa you mentioned bowing to 'atheists' but its not just atheists but jewish, muslim, and hindus to name a few who might not believe in or celebrate christmas. if you are a muslim and your child's class is singing christmas songs in school, does that muslim parent not have the right to say there child shouldnt have to participate? bottom line is that religion of ANY way, shape, or form has no place in schools other than as something to be educated about. this isnt because christianity is any better or worse than other religions but because its how our founders wanted it. if you want your kid to practice religion in their school then send them to a private school where they can do that. in public schools they shouldnt do that. and the thing about what i mentioned in cuba with the christmas signs and the manger scene out front presents an OFFICIAL christian image of the u.s. and that is wrong especially when taken into account along with the whole separation of church and state. yes we are christian society in general but we have a very large number of people who practice other religions or who believe differently or not at all and it isnt like these people are 2% of the population but probably closer to 30 or 40 percent of americans. whether christians are the majority or not does not give them the right to put their religion on display in a publicy funded place such as government building or schools. if the tables were turned and ramaddon signs and advertisements for that muslim holiday were all over the place people would be going apeshit and no one would think twice about totally bashing islam.

[Sasha]

You know what, for the first time I have to side with Graa and of course with Stanky. I am sick of this as well. You know what, we have programs that teach tolerance of other religions, Jewish, Muslim, Buddism, Hinduism. There was a public school in California about 3 years back that took an entire freaking week to teach Muslim awareness by making the kids in certain grades take a muslim name and taught them the ways of Islam. (which IMO is total bullshit). How is that seperation of church and state. FFS. Any public school trying to teach christian awareness would be sued out the ass one way and every single other. Its crap. The athesists don't want to be offended, and reguadless of what you say Artis, Christianity is still very strong in this country. I think the lastest election put an emphasis on that.

Stores now eliminating the phrase Merry Christmas replacing it with Seasons Greetings because its less offensive. Its just bs like that that ticks me off. Guess what. Christmas is a christian holiday. It has been for centuries. If you don't like it. Don't celebrate it. By no means does that make christians superior, but work places have to repsept the Jews and their 9 days of Hanauka (sp). People of other religions are also given certain religions rights etc. Christianity by far takes the most knocks, and loses more of its religious rights more so than any other religion in this country. Lets not forget that are still many many people who celebrate christmas with Christ still at the center of it. I do not think its right to remove their rights when we are taugh to respect other religoins as well. Christianity was the founding religion of this country and you can argue all you want,but thats the truth. Its has more history since the dawn of our country than anything else, to deny its roots is just ridiculous.

btw saying that if you want your kids to practice a religion to send them to a private school to do so is just utter crap. Alot of people can't afford the prices of a private school so I guess they should just have their right infringed upon because they can't afford a private school that allows their religion to be practiced.

[GRAAAAAA!!]

yes artist, although we are not living in iran or iraq. We are living in the USA. These people have to realize they are in a christan nation. If I lived in china I would not expect them to not show buddha in public just to cater to my religions belif. I would have respect for the culture and realize what country im in. The founding fathers wanted to actually protect the views of God and the church. Somehow the intent of their words have been twisted. Personally I think all religion should be taught in schools. Start teaching kids in middle/high school or something. Let them or parents pick the class they want.

What pisses me off the most is the way they removed the ten commandments from that court house a while back. That was the worst thing that could have ever happened. This is just because the ten commandments are what the court stand for and defend. So why remove them?

Back to what stanky was saying. Artist. you have to admit taking away santa is wrong, right? I think its a shame that these grinch like people wanna mess up christmas. I remember when I was in school I would sing christmas songs and draw drawings of santa. One of the best times I had in school that I can remember. To think that there are instances where people are having santa removed from public places all to please the minority is really outrageous. This is where i differ from some democrats out there.

[StAnkY]

we had a few kids in the school i went to that werent christians. as a matter of fact we had a couple jehovas witnesses. they didnt participate in the school christmas activities but there parents werent so pompus as to demand no other kids did either. i wouldnt see it as the worst thing in the world to enlighten kids for at least no other reason but to understand other religions. that way they would have an idea of how to show respect for someone who believes differently than they do.
yea graaa....it was a disgusting moment in our nations history when they plucked the 10 commandments from coutrhouse lawns and lobbys. look at how many laws were based off of those writings in some fashion. the 10 commandments went a long way in shaping morality for society here. dont let the 10 commandments sit on govt property but allow hate groups to use the same lawn as an assembly place. gimme a break

[Beo]

Heh, did you guys see the link I posted about this before BTP went down? It was a good one...

Anyhow, my take on the issue is this. Atheists and non Christian folk spend all year trying to wipe out Christianity in any public place period. But come time for Christmas, how many of these people erect trees and exchange presents? How many of them adopt Santa Claus? I even know a few people online who I've come across who spout this and that about Christianity but easily celebrate Christmas because they "just do". And now these people who choose to celebrate a delegated Christian holiday are trying to turn the emphasis away from Christ by forcing the rest of the country to be politically correct about it. We can't say Merry Christmas, we have to say Happy Holidays. People forget the reason for the season. It's become commercialized and the Hallmark version of the holiday has distorted it's true meaning. You don't see me celebrating Hannukah because I like the food so why do some people pick and choose some aspects of the holiday to celebrate? It's the word "Christ" that I think offends people. You don't see people getting upset about Halloween and its origins.

[Artis]

geezus people.

sasha, you mention the school in cali that took 3 weeks for muslim awareness or whatever. while i see SOME education promoting a basic understanding of islam as beneficial i think 3 weeks is excessive. i dont have a problem with religion in schools as long as it is educational. i have a problem when there are prayers on campus unless EVERY SINGLE STUDENT is from a bona fied christian family. i said "if you want your kid to practice religion in their school then send them to a private school where they can do that." i stand by that statement. im not saying people dont have the right to practice whatever they want but you shouldnt hold things like prayer meetings at school. if you want your kid to go to a school where they say prayers and teachers talk about god and the bible then send them to a private school. that stuff has no place in a public place. why? because EVERY AMERICAN funds public schools. not just christians but everyone else does too. i dont see why its so hard to see the line between church and state when it comes to schools or our government. sasha, i know all too well that christianity is alive and well in our country although i think it is a corroded judgemental version for the most part. what i said was that people act like 90% of americans are christians and that is plainly not true. christians may be the majority but that doesnt give them the rigth to impose their beliefs on others.
and regarding stores putting up seasons greetings rather than merry christmas. why in the hell does it not occur to people that seasons greetings is a more inclusive phrase? isnt that a good thing? whats wrong with saying seasons greetings or happy holidays? merry christmas whether intended or not invokes jesus and christianity. ya beo i know there are people who celebrate christmas because thats just what they do and my family is one of them. its a tradition for us and there is no god or jesus involved at all and thats fine for us.

the month of december does not belong to christianity. jewish people and muslim people have major holidays in the month of december and most americans celebrate new years as a neutral holiday so seasons greetings fits the best. its like you guys would like 'merry christmas' to be the catch phrase for every person who happens to be an american.

you guys talk about how its christianity thats always picked on and this and that and other BS but when we have a president who thinks he is on a mission from god and people like jerry falwell and pat robertson in our country you guys are leaving yourselves wide open for criticism. like all of you said, christianity is the most prominent religion in our country. well its also the most visible because of our current government. it being the most prominent and people fearing it being pushed upon them means that christianity gets criticized a lot. this is just a logical argument here. it seems obvious enough why it catches the most heat.

oh and sasha, most of the founding fathers practiced something called deism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deism), not, as you say, christianity.

graaa, you bring up a very good 'what if' about if you lived in china but what you people seem to be missing here is that it isnt like 90% of americans are christians or even 80%. It is closer to a 70-30 split. oh and something like 50 percent of americans dont consider themselves 'religious' anyway. so thats 30% of americans who dont matter? im not saying i think people cant have santa or reindeer or merry christmas or anything else emblazoned across their chests or at stores. i have a problem with this stuff in publicly funded places such as public schools or embassies or court houses not in your front yard or in the dept. store you frequent. malls and dept. stores wanting to do away with merry christmas signs and putting a more general seasons greetings sign up is good for business. i dont know any company that wouldnt kill their brother to gain the business of 30% of the american people.

regarding the ten commandments being removed from courthouses. well i am pretty neutral on that. i dont think its that big of a deal for them to be there but then again does having them there mean that the judge will be ruling with the precepts of the bible in mind? makes ya wonder if you ask me.

stanky you mention the kids from your school who didnt wish to particpate in the christmas stuff. well they probably had to leave the room. i dont want my kids to be ostracized because their family doesnt think the way other families think and you wouldnt either. we dont make the special needs kids go sit in a separate room because they are different. we adapt to their needs and do our best to include everyone.....or at least we should.

there isnt a problem with people celebrating christmas who arent christians but also thinking that christmas is a christianmess and has a lot of problems and shouldnt be imposed upon people.

and beo, in the south with diehard christians you do see them getting upset about halloween. i went to elementary school with kids who couldnt participate in any halloween activities or valentine's day or any of that stuff because it was the work of the devil.

frankly if i was a christian and i celebrated christmas i would be pretty upset that christmas has turned into such a commercial event.

[1$ikbITCH]

Actually, there are 12 days of Hannakuh. Not that I care. I was raised Episcopalian, but I've seen Bablyon 5. I know that God is just a Vorlan.

I still put up enough lights to be seen from a satellite. I don't wish anyone Merry Christmas, I say Happy Holidays. So does the huge blinking sign on my front porch :)

To quote the Marines, we must "improvise, adapt, and overcome". America is changing. The world is changing. We freed the Blacks, gave women the right to vote, abolished child labor, and now religious awareness is on the rise. It's definately an issue that needs to be dealt with. Will they go overboard? Yes. It won't be the first time, or the last. But we must move forward with the times.

Our not respecting other cultures and religions is what fueled the creation of Al-Qaida, and if we continue to view this country as "Christian", then we will remained in an idealogical gridlock against the Muslims, and they will continue to churn out thousands and thousands of new soldiers to fight us.

Are you ready to declare Holy War?

[Artis]

great post sikbitch.

[StAnkY]

sorry but i dont think the fact that christianity being the religion america is most associated with is the fuel for these attacks. i think its more to do with the fact we always find our way in other peoples back yards uninvited. we provoke screwballs to deflect from the hot issues (i.e. clinton and his arbitrary bombing of bin ladens camps in the heat of the leunisky scandal, ie bush going to war with iraq to skirt domestic shortcomings). it has jack shit to do with saying merry christmas to somebody or a nativity scene on a courthouse lawn. i dont buy it and i doubt many others do

[Beo]

I just find it funny that when people say that we should respect other people's religions, etc. that Christianity somehow doesn't fall into that category. If you wanted to respect other people's religious views, then leave Christmas alone as it is, not distort it into a PC celebration to suit everyone who wants to decorate a tree and exchange presents this time of year. If you want to talk about the beauty of religious diversity then we shouldn't "lump" wishing people a happy holidays into one phrase that encompasses all anyway, because all the holidays are not the same and are not celebrating the same thing. December 26-January 1st you should be saying Happy Kwanza. During the 12 days of Hannukah, what's wrong with saying Happy Hannukah? And gasp on December 25th what's wrong with saying Merry Christmas?

You know, this whole separation of church and state stuff is crap. It's not about snuffing out religion altogether, but being given the freedom to practice whatever one chooses including publicly if they choose to do so. With all this PC stuff, it's almost like people are expected to put their religion in their back pocket and not celebrate anything at all. In an effort to be accommodating to every other person in this country, we all loose our individual identity because we don't want to offend someone. So basically it's an all or nothing principle here. Since we cannot accommodate everyone - including those Jehovah Witnesses that aren't allowed to celebrate holidays, why don't we just snuff out all celebrations entirely? I know, let's get rid of the phrase "Happy Birthday" because going back to those good 'ol Jehovah's, it's not something they celebrate so wearing a paper hat and eating cake might offend them. Uh oh, what about St. Patrick's day? All of those non drinking people might get offended by the amount of alcohol consumed on that day, so let's not celebrate it at all. Oh oh, and don't forget Mardi Gras. Fuck the French, let's not celebrate something that derived from them and "Fat Tuesday" can offend the obese, so let's change that phrase to "Pleasantly Plump Tuesday"! And while we're talking about days of the week, let us not forget the origin of those and their Norse religion basis. I demand we change the names Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.... to be more PC!

:bitchmoan

[Sasha]

Actually, there are 12 days of Hannakuh. Not that I care. I was raised Episcopalian, but I've seen Bablyon 5. I know that God is just a Vorlan.

I still put up enough lights to be seen from a satellite. I don't wish anyone Merry Christmas, I say Happy Holidays. So does the huge blinking sign on my front porch :)

To quote the Marines, we must "improvise, adapt, and overcome". America is changing. The world is changing. We freed the Blacks, gave women the right to vote, abolished child labor, and now religious awareness is on the rise. It's definately an issue that needs to be dealt with. Will they go overboard? Yes. It won't be the first time, or the last. But we must move forward with the times.

Our not respecting other cultures and religions is what fueled the creation of Al-Qaida, and if we continue to view this country as "Christian", then we will remained in an idealogical gridlock against the Muslims, and they will continue to churn out thousands and thousands of new soldiers to fight us.

Are you ready to declare Holy War?

OH please make me puke, So now we must deny what we are in intrest of not offending other countries. We can be a chrisitan nation, which we are, without declaring shit on anyone. Al-Queda was not formed becuase the United States is Christian, so get over it and stop blaming that. They formed because our military and goverment are in their business. Their religion just happens to the opposite of ours. And for all those people who keep saying that Allah and God are one in the same and that we all worship the same God, you people need to educate yourselves, because when you say that, you not only offend Muslims, but you offend Christians because they are not the same entitity.

So Artis doesn't want to have to have his children leave the room and not be ostrasized. This I can understand. But if my child wants to say a quick prayer before a test, or if a small group of kids want to say a quick prayer about something they should be able to seperate themselves and participate in their religious beliefs, and because we are so Politically correct they don't.

[Artis]

ill say it for the 3rd time now. i dont have a problem with religion practiced anywhere but in publicly funded government buildings such as schools and courthouses and embassies, etc. etc. etc. kids saying a quick prayer to themselves is fine because it is a private act and isnt over the loudspeaker. a group of kids going in the corner to pray for whatever reason shouldnt be allowed. what if a satanic cult wanted to go pray in the corner during their lunch hour. or better yet, what if the goth kids wanted to chant some prayers out loud in a corner? would we let them? i think not. yet we should let the christians have a prayer group? i guess thats ok then huh? cause christianity is so much better than other religions and its the 'right' and 'only' way to believe.

i pick on christianity because i see it as a problem in our country. not necessarily because it is wrong or bad or anything but because of its influence on people and their actions and the judgementalness and corrosion that permeates it. this can be said for all religions but like you all say, we are a christian country so it is brought to the forefront. oh and since we want to democratize the entire world and not have them have a religious governmental society then we better watch out for dubya because the man thinks he is on a mission from his god.

[Sasha]

i pick on christianity because i see it as a problem in our country. not necessarily because it is wrong or bad or anything but because of its influence on people and their actions and the judgementalness and corrosion that permeates it. this can be said for all religions but like you all say, we are a christian country so it is brought to the forefront. oh and since we want to democratize the entire world and not have them have a religious governmental society then we better watch out for dubya because the man thinks he is on a mission from his god.


And personally you thinking its a problem, I think is your problem. LOL. You can pick on it all you want, talk about what a horrible influence you believe it to be. Again there are many genuine people out there that participate in the Christian faith. Simply because you don't feel like you know any, doesn't mean they don't exist. This country is alot better off with those chrisitans than without them. Other wise many of our social problems just increase, you greatly underestimate the amount of good many of those christian churches do. Their outreach programs, their food pantries, their progams to help people with their monthly needs etc. To much to mention. Its sad that all you see about that particular faith is the bad, when there is alot of good.

[Artis]

i know lots of good christians, i just see a lot of hypocrisy in a lot of christians. some of the very best people i have ever met and know the best are christians. i dont like christianity's current role in our government or any religion for that matter. i know you cant separate your faith from who you are but its pretty overt when we look at our president. i am also aware of all the good that chruches and christians do. when i criticize christianity it is in terms of hypocrisy, being judgemental, those more concerned with regulating morality than they are about doing good, etc. etc. i am not jumping all over good people from any background or faith. not all christians are good; just like every other group in the world. im not criticizing all of them but since we have millions of americans who believe the far right wing pat robertson criticisms and that armageddon is coming, etc. etc. i focus in on that. i dont mean to tear down christians or christianity, i am only trying to point out the very egregious and oh so serious flaws in the way christianity is practiced in our country by a lot of people. ya there are a lot of good christians but there are a lot of bad ones too.

[StAnkY]

lets make it a simple question. what HARM ever came to anybody when there was a nativity scene or merry christmas sign viewable on a govt building?

[1$ikbITCH]

This nation is decidedly NOT a Christian nation, or any other religion. This nation is governed by the Law, not the Bible. I guess since most of Americans are Christian, you think this is a Christian country. So, I guess you think this is a White country too?

And if you think you're practicing a nice, religious Christmas, you are deluded. Go back and read up. Where in the Bible does it mention a Christmas Tree, buying presents for everyone, or having to go visit those relatives whose names you can barely remember.

Christmas is for offering gifts to Jesus, and praising his Birth. The End. Until you supposed "Christians" start acting like Christians, save the Holier-Than-Thou Speeches. Everyone else can enjoy a break from the daily grind and celebrate the holiday too, even if it doesn't conform to your version of Christmas. That's what America is all about.

If you continue to strut your chests out and act like you're King Shit just because you're Christians, don't expect any sympathy from anyone, and don't expect anyone to respect Christianity either.

Damn I missed this forum :D

[1$ikbITCH]

Part 2:

To address my earlier comments about us needing to change, and if we don't we will never ever be rid of Al-Qaida and the Muslim fundamentalists, hear me out.

The people of America can practice whatever religions they wish. But the government must be seen as ambivalent towards religion.

The harm I see comes not from words in the Pledge, or the Manger Scene in the middle of the town square, but from America and Bush being perceived by the rest of the world as Christian Crusaders at war with Islam. If you don't think that's how we are perceived, get your head out of the sand, and if you don't understand the implications of this perception, go read up on it: http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/subjects/crusades/crusades.html

You might be able to distinguish between "America defending itself" and "America's leaders conducting a Holy War", but in the Middle East and Asia they can't or will choose not to make the distinction. This mindset will continue to breed exponentially more and more fighters for Al Qaida. We won't be able to kill them fast enough.

The religion must be removed from the equation.

[StAnkY]

lol what a statement. most of the laws on the books are at the very least loosely attached to the bible. we merely decided punishments for them. your rant there is the whole problem. its not like a merry christmas sign is chastising anybody, or a nativity scene is imposing will unless you are weak to begin with. im not by any stretch a churchy person but christ sake...it baffles the mind what kids as well as adults are expected to take on the chin and accept as they way it is and have a bunch of assholes shit all over something they "may" take offense in :stinks:

[StAnkY]

oh i see one of your points 1$ik. if we want to play world police we need to knock off the holy war statements. im not a fan of world policing to begin with

[Sasha]

This nation is decidedly NOT a Christian nation, or any other religion. This nation is governed by the Law, not the Bible. I guess since most of Americans are Christian, you think this is a Christian country. So, I guess you think this is a White country too.

And if you think you're practicing a nice, religious Christmas, you are deluded. Go back and read up. Where in the Bible does it mention a Christmas Tree, buying presents for everyone, or having to go visit those relatives whose names you can barely remember.

Christmas is for offering gifts to Jesus, and praising his Birth. The End. Until you supposed "Christians" start acting like Christians, save the Holier-Than-Thou Speeches. Everyone else can enjoy a break from the daily grind and celebrate the holiday too, even if it doesn't conform to your version of Christmas. That's what America is all about.

If you continue to strut your chests out and act like you're King Shit just because you're Christians, don't expect any sympathy from anyone, and don't expect anyone to respect Christianity either.

Damn I missed this forum :D


LOL wtf a white country? That is an ignorant statement to make. I don't think there is any puffing of chests in this thread either. This thread was about christmas and yes, everyone celebrates a little differently but that doesn't make it hypocritical. Where exactly did the concept of giving gifts come from.. Try the wisemen, and the christmas tree ... hrm.. lets see.. also has its roots in the christian religion. The traditions have evolved into something else, but ultimatly their history came from oh .. lets see the christian religoin. The point was that every single ism religion gains more tolerance while the christian religion looses more every single day. It's not about anyone being better than anyone else, or any color being superior to any other color. No one here is coming off as holier than thou. Who's acting like their king shit just because they desire to use the term Merry Christmas instead of Seasons Greetings. No one here said the Jews were wrong in the way they celebrate, nor Hindus, or Buddists or any other religion for that matter. Those are all asumptions you have made by your little old self. Where exactly did our moral code come from? hrmm lets see.. its origins are from.. the uh bible. Imagine that. I would also suggest that you shouldn't make assumptions on how anyone here celebrates christmas, then call them hyporcrites for doing so.. I mean after all you've made some pretty serious incorrect assumptions based on a few posts.

[1$ikbITCH]

It's absolutely an ignorant statement. I'm glad you see my point.

As for the gift giving and Christmas trees, the Wise Men gave gifts to Jesus, and Jesus alone. Not their mothers, or children, or each other.

The Christmas Tree didn't come about until the 1500's in Germany. Gee, that's right after the Crusades :D And it wasn't widely adopted in America until the 1900's, when it was commercialized for the masses.

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html

"Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans."

I sincerely doubt that God intended Christmas to be celebrated at all, much less the way it is today. Christmas is NOT SANCTIONED BY GOD. It's not even mentioned in the Bible.

As for the laws: Just because something is a good idea, and is mentioned in the Bible, doesn't mean didly squat. You will find most of the same laws mentioned in the Koran and in the Tao-tsang and other religious manuscripts. That point is moot.

As for "acting like they are king shit", that was my short term for people who try to push Christianity onto center stage in America and belittle other religions. Nobody likes a bully.

[Beo]

And if you think you're practicing a nice, religious Christmas, you are deluded. Go back and read up. Where in the Bible does it mention a Christmas Tree, buying presents for everyone, or having to go visit those relatives whose names you can barely remember.



Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes.

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html

From what I've heard, the practice of gift giving came from St. Nicholas - a well off person who gave gifts to the poor. A church was built in his honor. Blame coca-cola for commercializing him.

[Beo]

Damn, posted at the same time.

[Sasha]

hmm.. being that the Koran was written 400 years after the bible and could be considered a close copy except for the Story of Abraham and the way the Koran depicts thats story.. gee lets see.. oh yea the bible came first and was still the foundation for the moral code that is practiced still in the United States today however since we are so politically correct we are supose to forget about all that cause its a moot point.

[StAnkY]

yes beo but you made mention of DEVOUT CHRISTIANS. thats something that was omitted the post before yours ..go figure.
mocking the holiday itself or trying to dissect what is or isnt "what it was meant to be" displays the very intolerance you preach about yourself 1$ik

[sunni]

it isnt really worth getting all worked up about. its very stupid how we have to worry about making some big baby cry because they dont like the picture on a wall or something but i doubt that is going to change in the near future. its just hilarity that nobody gets uptight about halloween but they do Christmas!

[Sasha]

I agree Sunni.


and btw I just want to say one more time. That news bot is starting to get on my nerves. While its a good idea in theory all this clutter is kinda annoying :feelmeh:

[sunni]

i only read stuff when i see a name i recognize anyways. :)

[1$ikbITCH]

Sunni, that's what this forum is for. Getting worked up is fun! If we weren't passionate about our beliefs, we wouldn't post here. Well, I would, just to play Devil's Advocate and get everyone so pissed off they just have to post :)

Stanky I am absolutely not intolerant of any religion. I don't care what you want to believe in. Have at it. But you are pushing Christianity at the expense of other religions. They should all be equal.

Question: If a student is Muslim, Jewish, Taoist, Buddhist, or anything else, why should they be made to sit home for the Christmas holidays?

Answer: They shouldn't.

You should be able to express your religious beliefs. It's just the government that can't do it. And it's time we enforce this. We must lead by example.

Finally, Beo: I have pointed out in my previous posts that the spirit of Christmas is so lost anyhow, that these people have no right to point fingers and say other people aren't practicing Christmas correctly. None of us are "walking in the Light of the Lord" when they set up fancy trees, and make big lists of what they want, etc.

You point out "Devout Christians brought Christmas trees from Germany in the 1600's". Well, if you keep reading, you see that they were ridiculed, tortured, and burned at the stake by Devout Christians in America (The Puritans). So now what? I'll also point out that it was not too long before that the same Devout Christians in Europe murdered millions of people in the name of God. Great example :D

The argument was that Christmas is somehow sacred, which would imply that it's sanctioned by God, and a religious obligation of all Christians. BS.

God did not tell anyone to decorate a tree, or run around stuffing their faces with huge Christmas dinners and buying presents for everyone. That was all some shit people made up. And that's great. It's my favorite holiday, but it's not getting anyone into Heaven.

So what if billboards and commercials say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Is that such a bad thing? If there is one country in the world that is truly a "global village", It's the USA, and we should wear that badge with distinction, instead of distain.

[Beo]

If you're saying that relgion is not inclusive of Christmas because the word "Christmas" isn't found in the bible, then I can use that same logic and say that you can't spout "separation of church and state" as your Constitutional right because no where in the constitution does it state that phrase.





You should be able to express your religious beliefs. It's just the government that can't do it. And it's time we enforce this. We must lead by example.



The government declares Christmas, sponsors it, and encourages people to celebrate it. I would think leading by example would mean not celebrating it and in fact protesting Christmas because in essence, it's a government endorsed religious-derived celebration.


The argument was that Christmas is somehow sacred, which would imply that it's sanctioned by God, and a religious obligation of all Christians. BS

God did not tell anyone to decorate a tree, or run around stuffing their faces with huge Christmas dinners and buying presents for everyone. That was all some shit people made up. And that's great. It's my favorite holiday, but it's not getting anyone into Heaven.




Who said that Christmas is a religious obligation for Christians? It's not a mandatory celebration, and you saying that celebrating it isn't getting anyone in Heaven, I'll also sat that NOT celebrating it isn't getting anyone into Hell either.





So what if billboards and commercials say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". Is that such a bad thing? If there is one country in the world that is truly a "global village", It's the USA, and we should wear that badge with distinction, instead of distain.



This is exactly what I'm talking about here. Let's snuff out everything that makes us diverse and mush us into a melting pot of anonynimity, where no one respects diversity in this country. Again, diversity isn't forbidding certain parts of culture and faith. Religious expression is not taboo. Forcing people to be bound by a lack of religion is just the same as forcing people to be bound by one single religion.

:hippie:

[1$ikbITCH]

I'm not saying that Christmas isn't Christian because it's not in the Bible. I'm saying that God says in the Bible that you must pray on Sundays, follow the 10 Commandments, and so on. No where is it mentioned that you must have a party to celebrate the birth of Christ. People just took it upon themselves to do it. Therefore changing Christmas to be more sensitive to the rest of America only offends Christians, not God or Jesus. You guys will get over it.

Cursing the Holy Mother - sacrilidge
Denouncing God - sacrilidge
Saying "Happy Holidays" - not so much

I don't know where you guys keep coming off with the "lack of religion" and "discriminating against religion" stuff in this discussion. I never said you had to stop praying. On the contrary, I encouraged people of all religions to keep on practicing their religion. All that is being said with these new laws and measures around the country is to get it out of our face. Stop trying to force your beliefs on the rest of the world. Enough people are saying it that obviously, this is not just a Christian country.

As for the Global Village, you missed my point entirely. No longer can advertisements focus on or assume that everyone is Christian and celebrates Christmas. A large part of America does not. They have learned they must change and expand to include the entire American population, not just the Christians. This change is going on in all aspects of our culture, from the schools to the malls to the workplace, and you guys need to just accept it for what it is, and move on.

I have a feeling some of you are struggling with the fact that your religion is lumped in with all the rest and should not get any special consideration. Everyone else's religion should get the same consideration that yours does.

[1$ikbITCH]

Ok gotta go to sleep. This has been a blast today :)

:beat:

[Beo]

I have a feeling some of you are struggling with the fact that your religion is lumped in with all the rest and should not get any special consideration. Everyone else's religion should get the same consideration that yours does.





Actually it's quite the contrary. I think every religion should get the same consideration as well, but that same consideration isn't a lack thereof. And I'm sorry, but saying Merry Christmas isn't forcing my religion upon anyone nor do I expect displaying a nativity scene around Christmas-time is going to convert anyone. Publicly expressing religious faith is not forcing it upon anyone else who chooses not to listen. Just like someone telling me Happy Hannukah is not going to make me denounce Jesus Christ or spontaneously make me Jewish.

[Beo]

Ok gotta go to sleep. This has been a blast today



Rgr that. :dutchoven

[CDSaint]

free will- by definition: The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.


no one should be made to conform to others' ideals whether its regarding the way they celebrate christmas, the holidays, etc. including what is the best religion for them. i know a bit confusing from a woman that has atheism for a sig. i find the phrase amusing more than anything. in my case if god shows himself to me then i will believe. so far he hasnt rang my doorbell yet. /me waits patiently, but will not hold breath in the process :P ok back to your opinions kids. have at it :beat:

[1$ikbITCH]

That's exactly right, both of you. Feel free to say Merry Christmas; just don't be upset if some people respond with "Happy Holidays". I say Merry Christmas to my friends and family that are not Jewish, Muslim, etc... But out in public I choose to say Happy Holidays, since so many people are of different faiths (or have no faith at all :p). What's the big deal?

[Pallidrone]

hmm....and how did Palli miss this thread?

GRAAAA: What the hell are you talking about with the Ten Commandments? Our laws are not based on them what so ever. If anything they are based off of laws from Mesopotmia King - Hammurabi way back when. I am happy that they took the 10 commandments out of the courthouses. They have no bearing being there at all. You also should not have to swear on the bible. If you dont believe and think the bible is a crock, then what good does it do anyway?

Lets look at the 10 Commandments and see what laws are based off of there......(since there are different versions based off of what religion you practice, we will stick with the Catholic version)

1.) I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. (Well since we have seperation of church and state, I may believe that Bob from accounting is godlike. I will not be punished by the US for that thought)

2.) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. (God dammit!)

3.) Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day. (Well I can go to Dunkin Donuts and get me a nice coffee on Sunday, and then kick back and watch football without of fear of being prosecuted)

4.) Honor thy Father and thy Mother. (Hey, in my situation I refuse to talk to both of them. I dont honor them worth a damn, because they are not worth it. Am I going to jail now?)

5.) Thou shalt not kill. (Ahh the first one, and most basic law since Hammurbi. In fact most of our laws today came from him.)

6.) Thou shalt not commit adultery. (See 5)

7.) Thou shalt not steal. (See 5)

8.) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (This unfortantly I have no friggin clue what this is suppose to mean)

9.) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. (What about husband? - Cant go to jail for wanting something....)

10.) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods. (So I am not allowed to be jealous that Frank down the street got a new plasma display?)

So basically 3 out of 10 commandments are punishable by our laws. Is this reason enough to keep them out in front of our courthouses? It was the right thing to do to remove them from there because they have no bearing on what our laws are. Our laws are not predicated on the church, but by what society as a whole deems acceptable.

As for the rest of this thread.....and I cant believe I am going to say this.....but I agree with Artis. The only thing I will comment on however is that the image of Santa Claus is not a Christian belief. The original Santa was a kind rich man from the Netherlands (hence the outfit) that use to give children wooden shoes during the winter holiday. Back then shoes where a symbol of prosperity, and through his generosity it grew into what we have today. I totally agree with that image, and the spirit of Christmas itself. If we could only get rid of the marketing that goes into this Holiday and get back to the spirit of giving, I would be a happy man. :)

[1$ikbITCH]

Wow I can't believe I forgot about Santa Claus!!! I could have wrote a book!

[Beo]

:whip:

If the basis of Santa Claus who was traced back to St. Nicholas (or Sankt Nikolaus in Germany or Sanct Herr Nicholaas or Sinter Klaas in Holland) - a 4th century bishop doesn't mean he's not from a Christian background, then I dunno what to say.

The Legend of St. Nicholas

St. Nicholas
Corbis-Bettman

The legend of Santa Claus can be traced back hundreds of years to a monk named St. Nicholas. It is believed that Nicholas was born sometime around 280 A.D. in Patara, near Myra in modern-day Turkey. Much admired for his piety and kindness, St. Nicholas became the subject of many legends. It is said that he gave away all of his inherited wealth and traveled the countryside helping the poor and sick. One of the best known of the St. Nicholas stories is that he saved three poor sisters from being sold into slavery or prostitution by their father by providing them with a dowry so that they could be married. Over the course of many years, Nicholas's popularity spread and he became known as the protector of children and sailors. His feast day is celebrated on the anniversary of his death, December 6. This was traditionally considered a lucky day to make large purchases or to get married. By the Renaissance, St. Nicholas was the most popular saint in Europe. Even after the Protestant Reformation, when the veneration of saints began to be discouraged, St. Nicholas maintained a positive reputation, especially in Holland.

[Sasha]

Actually Baring false witness against your neighbor is applicable in terms of telling the truth on the witness stand, and perjury is punishable. Most of the 10 commandments were punishable by law at an earlier time in American history but mostly are the basis for our moral code as a whole. Our laws do define what is moral and what is not moral. Morality is legislated one way or the other before it ever become moral. Like for instance. Abortion, once illegal and not even spoken of. Back before it became legal it was considered immoral because first and foremost it was against the law. Now it's not and is considered a "choice". Pot was once legal and widely used in the 20s and 30s and considered a "choice". It is now against the law so now therefore people believe it to be bad. We all know its not all that bad.

Society dictates what is moral on the basis of our laws passed and implemented by those in authority. The Ten Commandments are part of early American History, and it is that history that people want to conserve. I don't think thats a bad thing at all. Oh but of course being politically correct that is somehow wrong now.

[CDSaint]

Feel free to say Merry Christmas; just don't be upset if some people respond with "Happy Holidays". I say Merry Christmas to my friends and family that are not Jewish, Muslim, etc... But out in public I choose to say Happy Holidays, since so many people are of different faiths (or have no faith at all :p). What's the big deal?


i just say all the greetings no matter what the case may be. so far i have yet to hear someone try to crucify me for my choice of words regarding the matter. :feelmeh: people that have too much time on their hands...sheesh!bunch of :crybaby: :foshizzle

[Pallidrone]

Actually Baring false witness against your neighbor is applicable in terms of telling the truth on the witness stand, and perjury is punishable. Most of the 10 commandments were punishable by law at an earlier time in American history but mostly are the basis for our moral code as a whole. Our laws do define what is moral and what is not moral. Morality is legislated one way or the other before it ever become moral. Like for instance. Abortion, once illegal and not even spoken of. Back before it became legal it was considered immoral because first and foremost it was against the law. Now it's not and is considered a "choice". Pot was once legal and widely used in the 20s and 30s and considered a "choice". It is now against the law so now therefore people believe it to be bad. We all know its not all that bad.

Society dictates what is moral on the basis of our laws passed and implemented by those in authority. The Ten Commandments are part of early American History, and it is that history that people want to conserve. I don't think thats a bad thing at all. Oh but of course being politically correct that is somehow wrong now.

Most of our laws, and other laws in other society are not based off the 10 Commandments, but off of Hammurabi's code. He was the first person to enact laws in any type of society, long before their was a christian church and long before Christ came along. If the punishments for his laws were not so inhuman(eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth), that is what we should have in front of the courthouse, not the 10 Commandments. That is where our and any other society's history came from.

[1$ikbITCH]

i just say all the greetings no matter what the case may be. so far i have yet to hear someone try to crucify me for my choice of words regarding the matter. :feelmeh: people that have too much time on their hands...sheesh!bunch of :crybaby: :foshizzle

So at the end of the day after all the debates and points going back and forth, the last thing to say is "Well, fuck 'em".

Nice bunt:D

[Beo]

/me thinks we need a new topic :feelmeh:

[CDSaint]

hehe that's right my little bitchy :whip:


in reference to sik's post btw :lol:

[Sasha]

/me thinks we need a new topic :feelmeh:


I agree. This topic has been done to death and seems to have hit a dead end wall. There continues to be disagreement about much of it and that's never going to change. People who have no faith or no strong belief in any type of religion are going to be insensative and try to prove points that can be continually argued upon. Time for a new topic.

[StAnkY]

lol got to admit...i picked a topic that was involving for a few days :D

[1$ikbITCH]

Yeah and no matter how much anyone disagrees, the debate is stimulating. Hell, most of the time I just take the opposite position just for the sake of debate. Most topics are not clearly black and white, and with just a little bit of objectivity it's easy to see both sides of the argument.

[Artis]

so ive been out of town, hence my lack of participation here. a few things to close out:

this is what the first amendment does say:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
government sanctioned christian holidays seem to me in opposition to that.

anywho..


if we are going to get specific here. you can mention about a hundred different examples of pre-jesus/judaism/christianity laws or mandates or practices that said: dont kill, dont cheat on your wife, dont lie, dont steal, etc. etc. etc. so christianity got its commandments from them. i think that the above things are basic natural ways of ethical behavior and NOT specific to christianity but to the better angels of human nature. once again i will say that christianity has zero monopoly on being a good person. people just think it does and that every good thing comes from their faith.

[sunni]

i know alot of bad people that go to church artis. they just pretend to be good while they are there.

[Artis]

sunni,
i know what you say is true but that wasnt really my point or rather it was only part of my point. in this thread people say that american morality and ethics comes from the 10 commandments but those moral precepts such as thou shalt not kill or lie or cheat, etc. etc. have origins that pre-date christianity and the 'birth' of jesus. i for one think that those moral certainties are basic natural laws or basic humanness that is within all sane people :) however, people either dont know or dont care that the moral guidelines we go by in the u.s. are NOT based on christianity anymore than anything else. some christians dont see this. they think everything begins and ends with christianity and if there is any 'rightness' in the u.s. it must come from christianity. this is a false hope and an even falser understanding of ethics.

[BuddhaMan]

"Bah Humbug!" is the correct holiday response in all situations. :D