computer thing a ma jig'er help

[ChicKeN]

I need a new monitor mine is dumb and i dont' like it... so i want a bigger one now i have a 17" ugh not flat viewsonic somthin and i want 19-21 inch monitor wheres a good place to look and what am i looken for?

[BuddhaMan]

I take it you want a CRT (normal monitor) and not an LCD panel type monitor there Mr. Fud`

There's a bunch to say on the topic, but the #1 thing I hate is Sony Trinitron tubes as they have two wires holding the matte up to the screen. You can see them if you look and they distract me. I'd steer clear of those. (they're used in more than just Sony products so look at the monitor type when you're shopping around). Mutubishi Diamontron is another that has the wires.

Here's a closeup:

http://www.dansdata.com/images/sg400/sonydampersml.jpg

[Czechmate]

What Buddha is talking about is called an apeture grille. They're used on better monitors, but it's true that you can see those wires when you have a bright background. The other type for CRT monitors goes by a lot of names, but the most common is an invar shadow mask. The difference is that the apeture grille gives you a sharper and brighter image (usually a .25 dot pitch) while the shadow mask will be .26 to .28 or so.

For CRTs, you can go relatively large for cheap, but they take a lot of desktop realty and weigh as much as a king size matress.

For LCDs, you want a fast response rate (16ms or lower) and a high contrast ratio (at least 400:1). Most LCD monitors also act as a USB hub as well.

For great prices on whatever your choice is, Overstock is fantastic. You can tack on an extra warranty for cheap as well.

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=CATLIST&PRO_SUB_CAT=410&PRO_SSUB_CAT=999

~Czech

[ChicKeN]

sweet thanks guys.. I am moving into a new hosue and getting a new copmuter desk and the all that shneeky stuff so i want to get a new monitor and setup a dual monitor system for my work. and a big ass monitor would make me happy i will check those out today thx

[ChicKeN]

besides the weight is it better to go with LCD or CRT?

[Hexum]

I prefer CRT, but that's me.

[Czechmate]

It depends. Some people claim that they can sometimes see some flickering on an LCD, while others can't. (I don't notice it, but JT says he does.) You may want to go to your local Best Buy or whatever and take a look around to see if you notice it. (Remember, the faster the response rate, the better, and faster means the lower number.) LCDs not only weigh a lot less, but they also consume about a 1/3 as much energy.

CRTs, on the other hand, typically have a higher refresh rate. This is different than response rate in that the refresh rate determines how quickly the monitor redraws the screen. For example, a refresh rate of 60Hz means the monitor will redraw itself 60 times a second. CRTs usually refresh around 75-85Hz, where most CRTs are at 60Hz. This, BTW, is the "Vertical Sync" setting in games and your video card settings. (I think it's something like, "Sync Every Frame" in the COD settings.) Disabling it (which you should do) means that your videocard will send new data to your monitor faster than it can display it and hence, it increases your framerate. This sometimes causes "page tearing", although I rarely see that. The higher refresh rates on CRTs theoretically translate into less page tearing.

Again, this is going to be a matter of your preference. You should really go to a store with a big selection and see what appeals to your eyes first, then make the purchase online.

~Czech

[B_G3ntl3]

I played on Czech's LCD at last cpl...and i did notice the blurring or whatever, but after playing on it that night, I got used to it, and it wasnt a problem. The only reason i probably dont have an LCD is its too expensive

[BuddhaMan]

One way to see if you can sense a lower refresh rate flickering is to look to the side of the monitor (like 30 degrees to the righ or left) and then you'll be looking at the screen with your peripheral vision. A human's peripheral vision can detect flickering at a lower #.

If you are left eye dominant look to the right so your dominant eye i using it's peripheral vison, opposite for the right.

If you don't know what eye is dominant for you -- pick a spot or item out in the distance across the room -- hold your arm straight out and make a circle (like the "OK" symbol) around your point of interest you're staring at. While maintaining the item in the finger circle, move you hand back toward your face. Your finger circle will end up surrounding your domiant eye. I'm left eye dominant, but right handed which makes shooting a gun more difficult.

[Regulator]

You can get the Dell 2005FPW for about $380 now if you have the correct coupons.

Just ordered two =]

or you can get the Dell 1905FP for about $280 with the correct coupons.

Just ordered three =]

LCDs are dropping in price and you can get a good deal if you know where to look. Currently I have an Dell 1801FP (discontinued) and it has a response rate of about 22ms and I dont see any tearing or ghosting, but you have to consider I am not a hardcore gamer anymore and this is more than adequate for however much I actually do play games. The dell 2005FPW and the 2001FP have a 16 ms response time and the 1905FP has a 25 ms response.

Buddha dont you have a 2005FPW?
I finally hopped on this and will setup a dual monitor setup (2005fpw + 1905fp) in a few weeks after graduation.

[Regulator]

If you don't know what eye is dominant for you -- pick a spot or item out in the distance across the room -- hold your arm straight out and make a circle (like the "OK" symbol) around your point of interest you're staring at. While maintaining the item in the finger circle, move you hand back toward your face. Your finger circle will end up surrounding your domiant eye. I'm left eye dominant, but right handed which makes shooting a gun more difficult.

I tried this but my results varied depending on which arm I used.

[BuddhaMan]

Then use both arms in this method:

http://www.ehow.com/how_11347_determine-dominant-eye.html

I DO have that monitor and it rox! Here's some pix. Playing HL2 @ 16:10 widescreen is awesome! :D

http://renttopwn.com/pics/computer/IMG_0858.jpg

http://renttopwn.com/pics/computer/IMG_0861.jpg

http://renttopwn.com/pics/computer/IMG_0860.jpg

[ChicKeN]

sure i will take one of those.... send it on up

[Czechmate]

I have four 20" flat panels (no, I'm not selling any -- three are computers and one is my upstairs TV). Three of them are 16ms response and one (the main one I use) is 12ms. I honestly notice no difference between the two. I'm stating that because the 12ms response rate, while faster and theoretically better, usually comes at a premium. In other words, make sure you see these in person before buying (at least if you're going with an LCD).

~Czech

[ChicKeN]

this is the one i have been lookin at... let me know what you think..

one (http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1216602&Tab=2&NoMapp=0)

[Regulator]

you can get a 20" dell lcd for cheaper but has a 16 ms response which is only 4 ms more.

the 20 inchers also support higher resolutions

[RuKuS]

I take it you want a CRT (normal monitor) and not an LCD panel type monitor there Mr. Fud`

There's a bunch to say on the topic, but the #1 thing I hate is Sony Trinitron tubes as they have two wires holding the matte up to the screen. You can see them if you look and they distract me. I'd steer clear of those. (they're used in more than just Sony products so look at the monitor type when you're shopping around). Mutubishi Diamontron is another that has the wires.

Here's a closeup:

http://www.dansdata.com/images/sg400/sonydampersml.jpg

dont hate
http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/Image036.jpg

[BuddhaMan]

lol...nice one

[ChicKeN]

that website is also in canadian dollhairs

[ChicKeN]

I have been trying to keep myself busy lately and looking for a LCD monitor. I went to the usual places like futureshop and bestbuy to see what 25ms and 12 ms looks like and i am still confused. the guy at the store told me anything above 19" isn't good yet and to wait 6months.. i am so confused with all this shit i don't know whats good specs for a monitor. Can someone maybe tell me what i want so i can just go buy it...

[shanKs]

Don't listen to that stupid idiot. 19" are fine! Make sure the picture quality looks fine to you and the refresh rate is decent.

[=DBA=Ronin]

I have a 17" Samsung with 16ms and no complaints from me on it. I see now they make a 19" with an 8ms Response Time for $419. It doesn't have adjustable height nor any digital inputs which for some may be a big drawback.

http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001185

[Czechmate]

The guy saying anything over 19" is bad is smoking some serious crack. Every 19" LCD has a native resolution of 1280x1024. The native resolution is an LCD's largest resolution. 20" LCDs usually having a native resolution of 1600x1200. If playing at the higer resolution is important to you, you'll need the 20" monitor. Here's what you're looking for in an LCD:

Musts:
20" for 1600x1200 if that's important to you; 19" for 1280x1024
16ms or less response time
Both analog (standard 15-pin like what goes into CRTs) and digital inputs (those white things)

Options:
Tilt/swivel controls for portrait landscape viewing
Height adjusting
USB hub built in
Picture-in-Picture

NOTE: If your video card has no digital output, you can get an analog to digital converter for about $10.

~Czech

[ChicKeN]

my video card has a digital ouput... can you setup dual monitors like one through the vid card one from the normal port socket thingy?

[shanKs]

yes...from my experience you will only be able to run one at a time. They both have to be plugged into the vid card and then you can go into vid card settings and take care of it there.

[Czechmate]

That is true. Your video card should handle both outputs at the same time. Just make sure your driver handles it. It will look something like the attachment in your Display Settings if it does.

~Czech

[BuddhaMan]

Fud: you can also do the opposite on some of the widescreen monitors and display 2 computers on one widescreen side-by-side. You probably don't want to do that, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

[ChicKeN]

sweeet one more question any brand name suggestions? just gimmie like a few that are all decent.. cause i see monitors from companies i dont know... but i don't know alot

[Czechmate]

Samsung and Benq are both very good. The Dell monitors Buddha keeps talking about are just Dell-branded -- Samsung makes those for them.

~Czech

[Rambo]

http://renttopwn.com/pics/computer/IMG_0858.jpg


just wanted to add WOW, thats like god monitor....

my monitor looks like i did this to it :gunner:

[BuddhaMan]

7x 20" LCD monitors compared: http://www.behardware.com/articles/547/page1.html

Viewsonic's 19" 8ms 3rd gen VG191b: http://www.behardware.com/articles/545/page1.html

I own the first gen of this monitor and it was good for me, even @ 25/35ms or whatever it was...

[Artis]

i have noticed tearing on every single LCD i have ever seen in games, therefore im a crt fan. i have a 5 yr old dell 17 inch trinitron. i will eventually upgrade my monitor but LCDs arent up to my standards yet.

[=DBA=Ronin]

someone needs to explain to me wtf 'tearing' is

[BuddhaMan]

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/42932/


image tearing in high frame rate games is occurs when the image being displayed on the monitor is updated before the monitor has finished drawing the screen

http://www.extron.com/technology/archive.asp?id=accurateframelock

http://www.extron.com/technology/img/imagetearing.jpg


Image Tearing:
When Frame Rate Conversion Goes Bad

You have probably seen this situation before. The video "hiccupping" is known as an image tear—a transient ripple, blip, or freeze in a scaled video image. It is a common byproduct of scaling that is most noticeable in video that has motion elements, particularly when a video camera pans across a scene or someone moves quickly across the camera's view.

Image tearing is an artifact of frame rate conversion. Scalers convert video input of one format and resolution (such as NTSC or PAL interlaced video or RGB at 560 x 384 at 59.94 Hz) into output of another format and refresh rate (perhaps progressively scanned RGB at 1024 x 768 at 60 Hz). To convert frame rates, a scaler must create or combine frames.

An image tear occurs if the input frame rate is slower or faster than the output frame rate, and part of the old frame and part of the new frame are displayed at the same time during a refresh cycle.

[Czechmate]

That first one is more accurate, at least for games. Image tearing (I call it frame or page tearing) is when the video card starts to draw the next frame on your monitor before your monitor is finsihed drawing the current frame. In extreme situations, it's really distracting, but normally, it happens once or twice per half hour or so. This is true, regardless of if it's an LCD or a CRT.

What happens is, when you turn off "Sync Every Frame" in the game, the video card is told to draw everything as fast as it freakin' can, regardless of if the monitor is ready for it or not. Most LCD monitors will refresh at 60Hz, meaning that they will cleanly draw 60 frames per second. Most CRT monitors will refresh at anywhere from 70-85Hz. Regardless of the monitor technology here, though, once the framerate is faster than the refresh rate of the monitor, tearing can be come an issue. It's most noticeable when the framerate is barely faster than the refresh rate. However, with games that don't push things too much (like COD), the framerate is typically so high that the framerate is double or more that of the refresh rate.

That is what I think Artis is referring to. This is the "flicker" that some people see on LCDs. Again, any sort of monitor will do this given the right conditions, but LCDs, because of their lower refresh rate, are more prone to it. It's really sort of a weird phenomena though. Movies in the theater play back at 24 FPS (for the most part). This is what looks normal to the human eye. Monitors are more than two times that. This can "trick" the eye into seeing a flicker on occasion. It's extremely obvious if you're watching some news program (like CNN Headline News) and they pan across the newsroom in the background. Nearly every computer monitor will look like it's flickering or it has very fast horizontal lines going through it. That's because, at 24 FPS, the 60Hz (or faster) monitors are caught in various states of refreshing by the camera and therefore, they appear to flicker.

Some people notice this more in LCDs than CRTs. And that's what Artis is thinking of (I think). Like BG said earlier in this thread, he noticed it at first, but after playing on one of my LCDs for a bit, he didn't notice it anymore. I never really noticed it to begin with. That's why it's important to see the monitors in action first before just ordering one. It drivers some people crazy while others seemingly don't see it at all.

~Czech

[|IB|NieN]

The reason people only see it on certain LCD screens is because all LCDs have different response times.

If your LCD is below 10ms then you should be fine. CRTS only tear if you have the Refresh turned down. I can easily tell when a persons refresh rate is low. I always max mine out and prefer it to not be any less than 85hz, and better yet 100hz.

[Czechmate]

That's only half-true. An LCD response time of 16ms (three of my four LCDs are 16ms while this one is 12ms) means that there's no issue at 60 FPS (16X60 = 960ms).

As for cranking up your refresh rate, you're hurting the monitor by doing that. You'll notice that most monitors have a higher refresh rate at lower resolutions and a lower refresh rate at higher resolutions. This is because at higher resolutions, there's a lot more screen to refresh and it takes slightly longer. If you force your monitor to use a higher refresh rate than it's designed to do, you're slowly breaking it overtime. This is why, in the refresh rate dialog on the Monitor tab, there's a checkbox that says, "Only show refresh rates this monitor can display." If you uncheck that, you may be able to push it higher, but it's a sure-fire way to kill the monitor. It's almost "overclocking" your monitor.

~Czech

[=DBA=Ronin]

wow...great crash course. Thanks. After reading that I can say that yes, I do experience screen tears quite a bit. Ive always noticed it but never knew thats what it was. It is a bit disgruntling to see considering I have all pretty high end equipment, but it doesn't bother me all that much in terms of distractions.

I wonder what settings I have that will most adversly affect this phenomenon. I have my monitor set at 75 hertz. The 'Only Display Rates this monitor supports' option is greyed out and I have the option to push it to 150hz. I need to check the specs I reckon on this monitor and see what it supports. My resolution is 1280x1024, but I play in game res with 1024x768. Is it best to match in game res. with your desktop? Or perhaps vice versa? Or doesn't it matter in terms of resolution? I do have sync every frame turned off.

I've often thought that I must be missing something considering the performance of my game display. It just doesn't feel like I have all high end equipment in here (yes there is higher end stuff, but this machine is no slouch). Aside from the occasional tearing, I get hitches every now and then too. What I mean is that the game just every so often will freeze for just a split second. That annoys me far more than the tearing but I think the two must somehow be related.

What do you figure installing the provided monitor drivers will do for me? I just have defaults now. I am guessing that perhaps that will change my refresh rate options for one, but aside from that what else might there be to gain from it, if anything?

[=DBA=Ronin]

O, and whether or not it matters, I have a Samsung 710n 17" LCD. 12ms Response Time, max res 1280x1024, brightness rating of 300 cd/m2, and a contrast ratio of 600:1, and I just found at that max res. it supports 75hz refresh. My card is a Gigabyte 6800GT 256mb DDR III

[BuddhaMan]

The hitching is probably due to your network connection when online and/or if it happens in single player mode too, something on the machine is interrupting the game engine like a defrag service or something like that that can interrupt disk I/O or something that hogs the CPU for a second and then you see a game engine hitch.

[Czechmate]

Buddha is pretty much on about what is causing the split second freezes: they happen when your connection hiccups. It may not even be your connection of course; the server can hiccup too and then everyone gets a split second freeze. You've probably been there for that when everyone all at once on Vent says, "Did everyone just see that?" :P

As for the right drivers for the monitor, they won't really change anything except for the refresh rate options and a few minor details. I mean, it's a monitor -- it's not like there's software "running" your monitor. If you look at what a monitor driver is, it's not really a driver in the classic sense at all. Instead, it's a descriptor, usually in the form of an INF or INI file. (I just looked on Samsung's website and a 710N driver is there.)

Basically, it tells Windows what sort of monitor you have and what its capabilities are. Additionally, there are some things that will take advantage of this information and optimize themselves for it. This is why you never want "Plug and Play Monitor" (or any other default name) for that. The computer currently has no idea what your monitor is, so it's treating it generically without any enhancements or other considerations. It's like taking your mother to McDonald's for Mother's Day. Sure, you did something, but you could probably do better. :P

Go get the driver.

~Czech

[=DBA=Ronin]

well I installed the driver and yeah, the refresh options now only go to 72hz which is kind of odd as its marketed for 75, but whatever. Im not suprised if its my connection causing the freezes at all, I have charter and their service sux major ass around here. I can't stay on xfire or irc w/o seeing my connection lost to either one at least 2 times a day. the interuptions usually only last a second, but its annoying as shit and has always been this way through them.

I hardly doubt its a running service of any kind causing it as I don't have shit running in the background of this pc, ecspecially when I am gamming.

[Artis]

i have played on a lot of LCDs at one time or another. my brother in law has about an $800 LG LCD and i absolutely cannot stand sitting at his computer and going into call of duty because of all the tearing. i guess i am one of those people for whom it is a big problem.

[Artis]

also the hitching you experience ronin seems like either a hardware setting or a piece of hardware. i dunno though. i know you have your windows box set up correctly cause i know you so i dunno bro.

[|IB|NieN]

How much RAM do you have on your system? Hiccups like that can often be caused by virtual memory swaps. When windows changes the size of the pagefile for example, or if you have to pull out of virtual memory because too much ram is being used.

Thats why you set your swapfile as a static entity, instead of a dynamic one. Lock it at about 1 1/4 gig and you should be fine.

Defrag your drive at least once a week too. Turn off any unecessary services in admintools ... streamline your system and it will run fine.

[Artis]

ronin = windows god so he probably has already done this.

[=DBA=Ronin]

I have my swapfile at 1.5x physical ram. No services run on this bitch other than what is absoloutely needed. Cooling is definately not a problem etiher. The ram is pretty high end xms xtreme with l33t indicator lights. I have run memturbo on it numerous times and always comes up clean.

I ended up formating on Sunday due to other issues I have acquired so we shall see how things run now...so far pretty good.

[BuddhaMan]

If Ronin = windows god, then what does that make me? :D

[ChicKeN]

adam has no internet and needs a windows xp anyone able to hook a brotha up?

[Artis]

ronin, reg, or stuffit are probably your best bet as i know they have hooked people up in the past chicky.

and buddha you would be like the bastard brother of ronin the windows god and i am the son cast out of eden. i dunno, i got nothin.

[Regulator]

Finally got my monitors ready to roll since school is about to start up.

Here's what I was talking about months ago.

Disclaimer: I took the pic with my cell phone

[BuddhaMan]

So is the widesceeen on the left the same as mine or is that the 24" version?

[Regulator]

same as yours the 2005fpw

[Beo]

Wow, this thread was a great crash course. I stood in Fry's for an hour a few weeks ago contemplating the various LCD monitor options and it was pretty darn confusing to say the least.

Anyhow, I almost decided on one until someone informed me that LCD monitors don't display "true colors" correctly. Is there any truth to that?

I do a lot of Photoshop and digital photography so I'm wondering if I'm better off with a CRT if that's the case?

[BuddhaMan]

I'm starting to think about doing the double monitor thing as I actually need more horizontal real estate than even a widescreen can offer.

There is a project on the internet that offers you the ability to have a larger desktop spanning two monitors, but on different computers. I'll post a link if I can re-find it.

[Artis]

LCDs pale in comparison to CRTs IMO.

[ChicKeN]

CRT's have a blue tint to them i am not sure about LCDS but i also do alot of graphics work and its all minor. I find it fine on teh LCD

[Artis]

he is canadian, dont listen to him. hey furt, you can finally marry your hot vato from mexico now that gay marriage is legal there.

[Regulator]

eh i thought LCD's display true colors better than CRTs.

Oh and i saw that program too Buddha: http://www.maxivista.com/

[BuddhaMan]

Ummm...same idea, different program. The one I was referring to (and can't find after searching) is Open Source and free.

[Cavi]

one (the main one I use) is 12ms.

~Czech


Its his Benq... and its kickass.

[BuddhaMan]

I screwed up the monitor program I was talking about. I'm creating a new thread for it since it's not a "monitor thing".