Gang Founder Claimed Innocence Until the End

[sunni]

Stanley Tookie Williams maintained his innocence right up until his death, even when an admission of guilt may have spared him execution.

Even after the courts and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger rejected a flurry of Williams' last-ditch appeals before his execution early Tuesday, his supporters vowed to prove his innocence.

Williams, the Crips gang co-founder whose case stirred a national debate about capital punishment versus the possibility of redemption, was executed Tuesday morning for killing four people in 1979.

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. Officials at San Quentin State Prison seemed to have trouble injecting the lethal mixture into his muscular arm. As they struggled to find a vein, Williams looked up repeatedly and appeared frustrated, shaking his head at supporters and other witnesses.

"You doing that right?" it sounded as if he asked one of the men with a needle.

After he was declared dead, his supporters shouted in unison: "The state of California just killed an innocent man," as they walked out of the chamber.

Lora Owens, stepmother of one of the four people Williams was convicted of killing witnessed the execution. "I believe it was a just punishment long overdue," she told ABC's "Good Morning America."

Williams' case became one of the nation's biggest death-row cause celebres in decades, with Hollywood stars and capital punishment foes arguing that Williams' sentence should be commuted to life in prison because he had made amends by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs and violence.

His execution also drew fierce criticism in Europe, where politicians in Schwarzenegger's native Austria called for his name to be removed from a sports stadium in his hometown.

"Schwarzenegger has a lot of muscles, but apparently not much heart," said Julien Dray, spokesman for the Socialist Party in France, where the death penalty was abolished in 1981.

Williams became the 12th person executed in California since lawmakers reinstated the death penalty in 1977.

In the days leading up to the execution, state and federal courts refused to reopen his case. Monday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Williams' request for clemency, suggesting that his supposed change of heart was not genuine because he had not shown any real remorse for the killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Schwarzenegger said the evidence of Williams' guilt was "strong and compelling." Witnesses at Williams' trial said he boasted about the killings, saying: "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him."

Williams was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

[LightBringer]

So, what are you wanting for a reply here, Sunni?

What did you expect, Arnold is the Terminator.

[LightBringer]

By Monday evening, the streets of Point San Quentin Village, a small seaside hamlet of 50 houses on the road leading to the prison, were packed with more than 2,000 people. The blazing white floodlights of the prison lit up the whole scene like a movie set. Some residents had rented their driveways to television satellite trucks for spot prices that ranged from $1,000 to $3,000 for the night. A portrait photographer, attended by a pair of assistants, had set up a street side studio where he was shooting demonstrators who posed in the lotus position against a white backdrop. "This is beautiful, absolutely beautiful," he said. Next to him, a small group of men were clustered around a banner that said "QUEERS AGAINST EXECUTION." A man selling hot chocolate was being pursued by a man with a "SAVE TOOKIE" sign, shouting "You fascist bastard."

[StAnkY]

lol i think she forgot to maybe insert a point of view here?
myself, i have no opinion on it really. there were eye witnesses to the crime, he bragged about perpetrating the crime, he surely had his hand in many other crimes at the very least ordering them to be carried out so no warm and fuzzy feelings about it from me.who knows. maybe he was the only one of the dozens of people who testified to tell the truth. witnesses who are made promises or deals will say pretty much anything id imagine

[1$ikbITCH]

Yup, life goes on; except for Tookie.

[LightBringer]

My viewpoint is as follows:

http://www.light-central.com/thatsracist.gif

[LightBringer]

I didn't realize selling hot chocolate was fascism. LOL.

[StAnkY]

lol i guess it depends on your definition

/me shrugs

[Sasha]

He probably was innocent. I don't agree with the death penalty. I think its a poor way for people to seek revenge.

[krazymop]

yeah, the guy who founded one of the most violent gangs in history is probably innocent :D

[BuddhaMan]

Robin Harris said it best:

"Shit! I wouldn't even take a lunch break! Gotta go, gotta go!"

http://www.movingimage.us/site/screenings/content/2005/images/robin-harris.gif http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000008GET.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[StAnkY]

problem was like most deathrow inmates, NOBODY should sit on deathrow for 20+ years. its not fair to the inmate, not fair to victims familes and its not fair to the people who pay to feed them, house them & secure them

[Variant`]

:whip:

[Scott]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/RabidPony98/arnold.jpg

[Dial]

hahahaha

laughing at scotts picture

[GRAAAAAA!!]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/RabidPony98/arnold.jpg


LOL scott!!!!:lol: Thats wrong!



It would be interesting if you posted some more info on the actually murder cases. All i heard was on the news They said it took the state a long time to finally find him guilty.

[BuddhaMan]

Variant sighting? Four ex-TFOers in the same thread...what's the chance of that these days? LOL.

[Scott]

buttsekz?

[Beo]

I don't know enough about the case as a whole, but the death penalty makes me uncomfortable.

[Sasha]

Me too Beo, especially since it was from 1979. Lets not forget, it costs more to execute a man than it does for one to sit in prision for a life without parole term. Oh yea.. it's more of a punishment too. but hey..Kill Kill Kill cause thats what we do.

[StAnkY]

its expensive to execute someone because of the pageantry involved. its played out like a ritual which stirs emotions on all sides. think about it..how much does it cost to have a vet put down a dog

[Sasha]

Haven't we executed innocent people with that same mentality? How many innocent lives are we willing to sacrifice for the greater good? I am all for punishing those who do wrong, but I don't think the death penalty is the way.

[StAnkY]

i think alot of it has to do with knowing they will most likely be old and gray if they dont die waiting for it. arguably, it doesnt seem like it scares people capable of killing that they to could face death. most prolly would prefer it to a concrete box til they fall over dead

[GRAAAAAA!!]

Variant sighting? Four ex-TFOers in the same thread...what's the chance of that these days? LOL.

LOL I know buddha..wtf? Easpecially in the political forum. If ut2007 is any good we should start up tfo again. :) Good times.

[BuddhaMan]

2007...two years?

[Vyper]

LOL We'll you guys will just have to keep in contact thats all.

[=DBA=Ronin]

JOHN (Edward Furlong): Jesus... you were gonna kill that guy!

TERMINATOR: Of course. I'm a terminator.

JOHN: Listen to me, very carefully, okay? You're not a terminator any more. Alright? You got that? You can't just go around killing people!

TERMINATOR: Why?

JOHN: Whattaya mean, why? 'Cause you can't!

TERMINATOR: Why?

JOHN: You just can't, okay? Trust me on this.

[1$ikbITCH]

This guy founded one of the most violent drug gangs in American history (excluding Mara Salvatrucha, which of course originated in El Salvador and then spread to the US).

Even if he didn't pull the trigger on the 4 murders they got him on, he's responsible for thousands of other deaths and the terrorizing of an entire city as well as having his gang spread their poison across the nation.

I'm all for forgiveness and repenting, but this guy couldn't repent enough in 30 lifetimes to wipe out the suffering he has caused.

[GRAAAAAA!!]

2007...two years?

I think its coming out This summer Actually.

[BuddhaMan]

That MS gang is not good. The FBI is working on taking them out.

[Sasha]

I do agree with you about that Sik, I would of liked to have seen him rot in prision. I am just not one for the death penalty. I think sitting in a prision is much more punishment.

[1$ikbITCH]

If he would actually suffer horribly while in prison, than I'd agree also, especially if he admitted to the murders and gave up what information he had on the gang. However, none of that happened and if he had gotten a life sentence he would just be running the prison and living the good life.

[Sasha]

I don't think living in prision is a good life. People have horrible misconceptions about that.

[1$ikbITCH]

You have personal experiences to share? Cause I do. Prison life is anything but torture for these animals. They come from a life of gun battles, knife fights, living day to day on the streets. The police are after them, the citizens hate them, and the rival gangs are trying to kill them. They have no jobs and no future. They are misfits and outcasts, and have no place in our society.
In many aspects, for these individuals, prison is FAR preferable to life on the streets. In prison they are surrounded by their gang, they have their drugs smuggled in by the corrupt guards, and they never have to worry about sleeping in the rain. Prison is it's own society and many prisoners find that once they get used to it, they never want to leave. The only thing they don't have in prison is pussy, and there's plenty of faggots to fill that need.

For some people, yes, prison is horrible, but for many others, it's just life.

[Artis]

im not big on the death penalty because it is simple revenge. it is NOT a deterrent as some had hoped. its just revenge and thats never a good motive. two wrongs dont make a right?

[1$ikbITCH]

Ok so we'll send them to your house to live. Why should I have to provide for them?

[Scott]

its good revenge

[vonScuzzman]

"Williams became the 12th person executed in California since lawmakers reinstated the death penalty in 1977."

You Californians need to get on the stick, We get that many done by August in Texas.

[Sasha]

Ok so we'll send them to your house to live. Why should I have to provide for them?

Your paying more for them when they are executed, you know that. and how long were you in prision? Long enough to strip your humanity and freedom and allows yourself to be raped and owned by someone bigger than you? Long enough to understand the only thing ever touching you again is another man. Perhaps long enough to stick you on a chain gang to work your ass off like anyone who is in prision should be. Or just long enough to realize it's not a life you really want to get use to? Long enough to realize your in prision for drugs but learning much more dangerous activities? Or yet.. just long enough to understand the only type of person that really can't be rehabilitated is a pedofile?

It's ignorant revenge.

[BuddhaMan]

It's not revenge...it's called getting rid of them.

C ya!

[Artis]

this makes me thing of the u.s. torturing people.

how can we ever expect people to trust us when the only means we can find are violent ones?

[1$ikbITCH]

Your paying more for them when they are executed, you know that. and how long were you in prision? Long enough to strip your humanity and freedom and allows yourself to be raped and owned by someone bigger than you? Long enough to understand the only thing ever touching you again is another man. Perhaps long enough to stick you on a chain gang to work your ass off like anyone who is in prision should be. Or just long enough to realize it's not a life you really want to get use to? Long enough to realize your in prision for drugs but learning much more dangerous activities? Or yet.. just long enough to understand the only type of person that really can't be rehabilitated is a pedofile?

It's ignorant revenge.

It's only revenge for the family. For the rest of us, it's just purging the evil from society. I have no anger towards that dude. However, I realize that he's a waste of space, and will probably kill more prisoners, guys who just made a mistake and are trying to do their time and get out. HE'S THE REASON prison doesn't work.

If you think anyone was raping that dude, you are on drugs (which would explain your stance on this :P). That was the biggest and baddest leader of one of the biggest and baddest gangs, the ones doing the raping and killing! He was protected by hundreds of stone cold killers in that prison. What planet do you live on that you let these people walk amongst your children! Kill them NOW! There's far too many people on this planet who deserve a chance to worry about these scumbags. Join us and give a few dollars up to save this girl (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=38&threadid=1732842) and stop wasting your energy over psychopathic predators.

Finally, the only reason it costs more to execute someone is because bleeding heart liberals care more about the lives of criminals than the safety of the community. Fuck that dude and his rights. His humanity was stripped the day he killed someone and took their rights. The system gives them 20 some years to burn up millions of dollars wasting our time with BS appeals. Upon the denial of their one and only appeal no more than 1 year after sentencing, they should be led straight to the chair or chamber and be executed. Enough with the pussyfooting around with these pyschopathic maniacs. End the appeal process now.

Normally I'm a centrist and in a lot of things definately liberal (abortion, religion, gays)but when it comes to murder there can be no quarter.

[Vyper]

My only feeling on the death penalty is this. If, as in the case of John Wayne Gayce, you can prove, beyond the shadow of doubt that the killer is the one who HAS done the killing, you are killing someone who we should no longer waste time or energy on. There are those who can be saved and the time and energy should go towards them not those clearly beyond redemption.

[=DBA=Ronin]

They should make the executions public again. Now thats a deterant.

When I was in Vietnam, we were driving in a bus around Saigon going from A to B. We came upon a large sports stadium and our tour guide informed us that on this day, there were 4 people about to be publicly executed in the stadium by means of a firing squad. Now the crowds that gather for this aren't like the ones you see in the movies like Gladiator, or what you even know about the 'games' of aincent Rome where gorey death was a means of entertainment. There was definately a charge in the air as the solumn reminder of what happens to criminals there made its very definitive point to the locals.


What good is a deterant if no one sees it? Quit hiding this shit in the shadows and shoutcast that motherfucker!!

[1$ikbITCH]

My only feeling on the death penalty is this. If, as in the case of John Wayne Gayce, you can prove, beyond the shadow of doubt that the killer is the one who HAS done the killing, you are killing someone who we should no longer waste time or energy on. There are those who can be saved and the time and energy should go towards them not those clearly beyond redemption.

I will say this. Occasionally, there will be a case that makes me wonder if the guy should have his sentence commuted. But with Tootsie, it's not even debatable. Authorities begged him for years to tell all he knew and potentially take a lot of killers off the streets and save lives, and he didn't.

Unrepentant till the end.

If it still isn't clear how deep the guilt runs, read this:

Many popular rappers, in particular West Coast rappers, have close ties to Crips gangs in L.A. County. Snoop Dogg is a former member of the Rollin' 20 Crips in Long Beach (as are Warren G, Nate Dogg, and Goldie Loc), while WC is from 111 Neighborhood Crips in South Los Angeles. The late N.W.A member Eazy-E reportedly had ties to the Kelly Park Compton Crips. Recently signed G-Unit rapper Spider Loc is also a known Crip gang member. However, there are also many rappers who are not members of Crips sets, yet take on traits of the Crip image and behavior because they hope to self-promote and sell records by doing so. Ice Cube has at times claimed to be a member of the Rollin' 60 Nhood Crips, even though he has no proven ties to this gang (aside from the fact that he is from the same area), and Atlanta rapper Young Jeezy has also claimed to be a Crip in some songs (also without any proof).

So many kids strive to be crips that rappers use their gang affiliations to sell millions of records, further perpetuating the disease, and of course the kids all think it's cool and now even more of them will fall into the trap and throw their lives away.

It makes me sick. And I agree with Ronin, and will add that we need to bring back the guillotine.

[BuddhaMan]

Bring back Chop Chop Square.

[GRAAAAAA!!]

My only feeling on the death penalty is this. If, as in the case of John Wayne Gayce, you can prove, beyond the shadow of doubt that the killer is the one who HAS done the killing, you are killing someone who we should no longer waste time or energy on. There are those who can be saved and the time and energy should go towards them not those clearly beyond redemption.



I dunno about the case you mention, but I agree. I think the death penalty needs to be enforced only when there is indisputable DNA or forensic evidence linking the suspect to the murder.

[Sasha]

Serial Murderers and Pedofiles I would support the death penalty for. Serial Killers often own up to what they have done and are proud of it. Pedofiles simply cannot be rehabilitated and often serve the shortest sentences. There is a 99.9 percent chance they will re-offend, burn them painfully in public is what I say to that! ;)

[StAnkY]

^

[LightBringer]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Artis]

i sympathize with the desire to purge evil from society but

oh and the reason prison doesnt work is not because of any one prisoner, its the whole system that allows things to happen. a prisoner can be expected to do whats best for him regardless of the circumstances.

as far as prisoners on death row and whether or not they should have appeals, etc......they should. why? because our legal system is not perfect and when you make the decision to kill someone you need to check and double check and again and again. its not something you want to screw up. 1 innocent person killed is too many.

also, ronin. i dont think making the executions public would be a deterrent. unless we stoned people to death that the death penalty would be a deterrent.

thinking about public executions makes me think of afghanistan under the taliban. they would stone people to death at the soccer stadium in kabul and every now and then they would have a dr. go take the person's pulse to see if they were still alive. its just brutal.

pedofiles and serial killers i have no problem with killing but i think that kind of retribution and taking of life damages a culture. i think it corrupts and weakens any moral position we will ever take as a country and a people. violence begets violence.

on a related note: “If a country has five percent of the world’s population but 50 percent of its military spending, this country’s persuasive powers are on the decline.”

[StAnkY]

appeals yes, but why even have provisions for appeals of people who are without question guilty as hell? if there was witness to the fact, scientific evidence and a confession with no remorse. the entire process is too timely and costly. throw a plastic bag over their head and let the victims family decide wether to pull it off or watch them suffocate

[Artis]

do you honestly think that there is nothing wrong with that? could you bring yourself to do that? im not talking about someone breaking into your house here but someone in shackles staring at you with their life in your hands. could you take it? do you feel like you have that right?

[MalorieKnoX]

Fat bottom girls make the world go round.

[1$ikbITCH]

do you honestly think that there is nothing wrong with that? could you bring yourself to do that? im not talking about someone breaking into your house here but someone in shackles staring at you with their life in your hands. could you take it? do you feel like you have that right?

You have to take it case by case. In this case, I could easily pull the trigger, not for the murders he may or may not have committed, but for his crimes against humanity by starting the crips. Think of how many murders are on his head by proxy.

If you have a chance to stop your drunk friend from driving, but don't, and then he kills somebody, aren't you at fault as well?

As long as we allow these people to live, we are all guilty of the crimes they go on to commit. If I believed in God I would say we must spill their blood to cleanse our souls! :D

[LightBringer]

Serial Murderers and Pedofiles I would support the death penalty for. Serial Killers often own up to what they have done and are proud of it. Pedofiles simply cannot be rehabilitated and often serve the shortest sentences. There is a 99.9 percent chance they will re-offend, burn them painfully in public is what I say to that! ;)

Actually, burning them painfully in public is a vengeful thing to do since there is no deterrent for those with this type of intent. These men were homegrown to be like this. I think a non-violent execution like lethal injection is the proper thing to do. Most of them that did these crimes grew up without a chance to make it in society. Most had a violent childhood brought about by their parents, or lack thereof. So, what else do you expect they would be when they grew up to an adult. Society failed for many of them during their childhood years. Yes, most kids turn out to be fine. But, some will not. These serial killers and pedofiles are the result of that. Since medicine cannot undo their criminal behavior that is a thirst they cannot quench, we need to just lock them up and away from society, or death by injection. My choice is to let them choose between life in prison, or death by injection. You might be surprised how many will pick death.

[1$ikbITCH]

I agree with Lightbringer. Those people are sick as opposed to criminal and just need to be put down quietly, for the benefit of mankind.

However, when it comes to gangbangers, rapists, robbers and drug dealers who murder, I think their executions should be publicized.

The death penalty is not a deterrent because it happens behind closed doors where nobody has to think about it. On top of that, it's supposed to be humane and painless, like going to sleep.

After the fall of Saddam when there was mass looting, murders, rapes, etc. going on, the Iraqi people were complaining that they were much safer under Saddam. This is because under Saddam's watch, if you even looked at someone wrong, you were lined up in the public square and then hacked to death for all to see. The only crime in Iraq was being committed by the State. If we took a tougher stance, we'd get better results.

[BuddhaMan]

Stoning people isn't just a "Taliban thing"...public punishment/executions are common in Saudi Arabia too.

[LightBringer]

Well, they'll stone ya when you're trying to be so good,
They'll stone ya just a-like they said they would.
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to go home.
Then they'll stone ya when you're there all alone.
But I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

-Bob Dylan

[StAnkY]

let the victims families decide. if they can stomach a life being taken then so be it

[1$ikbITCH]

Ok get that bill passed awhile. In the meantime...

Have a seat!

http://image04.webshots.com/4/8/61/72/100086172kvWLzu_ph.jpg

[Sasha]

Pedofiles are not always home grown, If there is one thing I have learned from working in a Psych hospital it is that very thing. I agree they are sick individuals, but I also agree they are predators who will violate a child in some way over and over and over. There is no deterent for these type of people. Generally speaking, they come from good homes too. Alot of them do come from wacked homes also, but that is not always the cause.

The appeals process must be available to every single individual. There is too much wrong with the legal system as it stands to take the appeals process away.

Why are we executing people who are considered mentally retarded? We have a stipulation in our constitution that we are not to execute if the IQ falls below 50 but it is commonly ignored. We have extremely poor mental health care for people in this country and it is often looked at as a privledge. Physical and Mental Health care should be a right not luxuray.

[Pallidrone]

I am happy he is dead. Personally I feel that more slime that we purge from this society, the better.

White collar crimes? DEATH!
Murder in the first? DEATH!
Grand theft auto? DEATH!

In fact, I also agree that we should televise it on every channel, just like the president's speech. Maybe then we can force a lot these assholes to stop being assholes and respect other people.

I am all about population control and getting rid of the morons in this society.



Why are we executing people who are considered mentally retarded? We have a stipulation in our constitution that we are not to execute if the IQ falls below 50 but it is commonly ignored.


I am curious to see that. I have read the constitution a couple times and don't recall ever seeing anything like that in there.

[Sasha]

Guess the Supreme Court disagrees with you. In Atkins v Virginia in 2002 the Supreme Court ruled that executing those with metal retardation violates the 8th Amendment of Cruel and Unusual punishment.

Anyone that scores below a 70 and severely below 70 on a properly administered IQ test qualifies as being classified as mentally retarded. I don't like labels and degree of severity is different in every case but generally how many of our death row inmates have a very low IQ?

[Pallidrone]

Guess the Supreme Court disagrees with you. In Atkins v Virginia in 2002 the Supreme Court ruled that executing those with metal retardation violates the 8th Amendment of Cruel and Unusual punishment.

Anyone that scores below a 70 and severely below 70 on a properly administered IQ test qualifies as being classified as mentally retarded. I don't like labels and degree of severity is different in every case but generally how many of our death row inmates have a very low IQ?



Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel
and unusual punishments inflicted.

That is different. That is a Supreme Court ruling, not a stipulation or amendment in the consitution!

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/301/


However, she rejected Penry's blanket claim that generally the Eighth Amendment does not allow death sentences for retarded defendants.

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/1483/


In a 6-3 opinion delivered by Justice John Paul Stevens, the Court held that executions of mentally retarded criminals are "cruel and unusual punishments" prohibited by the Eighth Amendment. Since it last confronted the issue, the Court reasoned that a significant number of States have concluded that death is not a suitable punishment for a mentally retarded criminal.

This is all a LOOSE look at the 8th Amendment. Give it another 15 years when someone with diminished ability sits there and sets a family on fire while roasting hotdogs over their burning corpses and see it change again.

[Sasha]

your opinion, but the american bar association and the supreme court both disagree with you.. course what do they know :)

I had to edit and say I am just being a shit for the sake of argument, I am not trying to be mean LOL.

[Artis]

my argument has never been that tookie williams didnt deserve to die but on the death penalty in general. im kind of in the middle on the issue but im starting to lean towards being against because of reasons ive already stated.

buddha, i know stoning isnt solely a taliban thing. your reference to the saudis is just another instance of american hypocrisy in our support and propping up of the government over there.

i think most here are taking a very simplistic view towards the death penalty as if every case was that clear cut when most are not. the problems with our justice system and our society as a whole are what we should be talking about, not whether or not tookie williams was a bad guy. maybe we should ask why we produce so many people who commit violent crimes. i think in large part this is how we should look at most of our society's problems. we need to look at prevention rather than how to handle the prisoners we already have.

palli, the IQ thing sasha mentioned may not be in the constitution but there is some statute or ruling of law that says you cant put to death idiots and by idiot i mean in the classical sense.

i think the u.s. is backward in so many ways; viewing violence as the right solution when it is merely one of the easiest being one of those.

[StAnkY]

lol i dont think anybody here takes a simplistic view on the death penalty

[Pallidrone]

I have zero faith in humanity and I am appalled by what humans will do to each other. I find no problem with putting someone to death for even simple crimes. That, however, is not the American way.

The American way is to steal from your nieghbors, rape them of their dignity and self respect, piss on their heads and laugh while you are doing it.

Honestly, I feel that humans are vile and disgusting creatures, not worthy of the life we lead.

The more that are gone, the better this place will become.

[BuddhaMan]

There's a great Sci-Fi book out there I read years ago where the society in it used criminals convicted of the death penalty as organ donors so that they may help society on their way out the door.

[Artis]

i think when you talk about the death penalty in terms of 1. here is what this person did and 2. this is how to punish him and he deserves a violent death and permanent removal from conscious life - that doesnt really get you anywhere.

violence is a simple solution. kids who cant figure out or havent learned how to cope with a situation often lash out in anger. presidents do this too sometimes.

martin luther king jr. said this, "Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love...Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding." — 1958

thats not to say prisoners should be treated "with the power of love" but its a thought.

violence begets violence. is that some big secret or is it that people just dont care? are violent acts in retribution or punishment or this new pseudo form of personality cleansing, something good? by committing a violent act are you losing your hold on whats good? are you corrupting something?

dont get me wrong, im not a pacifist, i just think that in the long view we are basically just chasing our own tails.

palli, human beings are vile but we are also not vile. why embrace whats vile and give up on whats not? is it the perceived pointlessness of it all?

i just plowed through a very interesting novel in about 2 hrs called, "coma" by alex garland and im in a bit of a thoughtful mood.

[BuddhaMan]

Ahhh...that book's title is "The Coma" not "coma". I thought you were refering to the classic book/movie by Robin Cook because the plot of that story/movie is very close to me mentioning organ harvesting. I was all ready to type about that. ;)

[Artis]

no, the one i read had nothing to do with organ harvesting or the death penalty.

[1$ikbITCH]

i think when you talk about the death penalty in terms of 1. here is what this person did and 2. this is how to punish him and he deserves a violent death and permanent removal from conscious life - that doesnt really get you anywhere.

violence begets violence. is that some big secret or is it that people just dont care? are violent acts in retribution or punishment or this new pseudo form of personality cleansing, something good? by committing a violent act are you losing your hold on whats good? are you corrupting something?



Death is not necessarily violent. That's the whole idea behind the gas chamber and lethal injection; to make them just go to peacefully go to sleep forever. Not violent in the least. The only thing violent here is the person being put to sleep.

And the only thing you have to come to grips with is your own morality. Do you let this killer roam the corridors of your prison preying on the lesser criminals who still have a shot at turning their lives around? To avoid that, do you torture him for the next 40 years or so by removing all human contact and isolating him so he won't kill anyone else?

Execution is the humane thing to do in these extreme cases.

[Sasha]

Your talking about extreme cases though. I don't think that there is one person here who thinks that society wouldn't be better off with certain criminals who recieve the death penalty and are executed. LIke the BTK killer, or other very violent criminals.

When the legal system is perfect however and doesn't discriminate then perhaps the death penalty will be of greater use. Perhaps it won't.

[Pallidrone]

i think when you talk about the death penalty in terms of 1. here is what this person did and 2. this is how to punish him and he deserves a violent death and permanent removal from conscious life - that doesnt really get you anywhere.

violence is a simple solution. kids who cant figure out or havent learned how to cope with a situation often lash out in anger. presidents do this too sometimes.

martin luther king jr. said this, "Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love...Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding." — 1958

thats not to say prisoners should be treated "with the power of love" but its a thought.

violence begets violence. is that some big secret or is it that people just dont care? are violent acts in retribution or punishment or this new pseudo form of personality cleansing, something good? by committing a violent act are you losing your hold on whats good? are you corrupting something?

dont get me wrong, im not a pacifist, i just think that in the long view we are basically just chasing our own tails.

palli, human beings are vile but we are also not vile. why embrace whats vile and give up on whats not? is it the perceived pointlessness of it all?

i just plowed through a very interesting novel in about 2 hrs called, "coma" by alex garland and im in a bit of a thoughtful mood.


Artis, why the circular argument? We are vile but are not? Come on.

Throughout history we are known as savage vile creatures. We destroy land for our own selfish needs. We kill, we mock, we mentally abuse others. We have this self centered ego centric thought process that we are the greatest thing living on this earth and even in this universe.

We are dumb, yet we think we are so smart. We have no clue about how to treat one another fairly, and we have to make up crap to explain things that can not be explained. All to make ourselves look better towards one another.

We are a fundmentally flawed. By having a higher level of "intelligence" (and I use that word lightly) we are in fact dumber then ever other creature on this planet.

Let's face it, humans are social creatures, but are not meant to be ruled by one another. If there was another creature with a higher level of intelligence or power that could rule humanity with a fair and objective point of view, then we would be able to actually because decent creatures.

That will never happen, so we have to deal with the fact that we are vile, we are disgusting and that while we will never change until that day, that maybe we can move foward with that knowledge and maybe make this world a better place. I highly doubt that, especially in this society, where greed and gluttony is put up on a pedastool, all in the name of making sure that the people never rebel.

You can't rebel while you are shoving a Triple Big Mac down your throat.

(sorry I know this is all over the place, just random thoughts of weirdness from the Palli)

[Artis]

the gas chamber is NOT a non-violent means of killing someone. people killed in gas chambers most definitely suffer.

lethal injection is less violent but you still act out some sort of physical thing to cause the person harm.

also, death row inmates rarely interact with regular prisoners. they are generally not in the general prison population.

sasha makes a good point. the appeals process is a necessary evil. it is a check on the huge decision on whether or not to take someone's life and mistakes are often made in initial trials and often criminal defendants have extremely poor legal defense and/or there are mitigating circumstances involved or new technology that can prove one's innocence.

[Artis]

palli, its not a circular argument. its a glass half full kind of thing. no one can argue that we are not both good and evil.

what you say about human nature may be true but it can also be used as a copout by some.

i think our problems are fundamental and not just dependent upon what legislation our congress passes or what our courts rule. i think capitalism and consumerism makes our natural selfishness come out in even greater force. i think pure capitalism is generally responsible for most of our problems and can even be tied to the practice of the death penalty and our entire global outlook and our feeling of inflated self-importance.

i think we are basically talking about the same thing here palli. we both want to point out whats screwed up and wish we could fix something. capitalism comes from whats vile in my opinion because it takes something generally sinful and calls it good. we can do much better. im not saying im a socialist but capitalism in the american variety has screwed us up and needs to be altered.

i guess i thought earlier that you were saying, "we are vile and so the way things are is inevitable and can never be better." i, of course, whole heartedly disagree with the inevitable and can never be better part of that.

[StAnkY]

were are a competitive species with or without capitolism or consumerism. those are just the primary arenas we benchmark our status in society with. greed will always be present unless you replace it with despair. palli is right. we are selfish creatures even when we intend to do well for others. proof is how most of the time when we do a good we have to let others know because we want it acknowledged. true charity is anonymous and rarely do we practice anything in anonymity.
somebody missed the point when i made refference to letting the victims families watch the suspect die with a plastic bag wrapped around their head. of course most people would be merciful and poke a hole in it or tear it off. that is the point! that lets them come to terms with how difficult it is to take another life because while watching someone gasp for air they arent feeling any better about their loss. chances are they would say take it off their head and let them rot in jail. it also lets the suspect know the helplessness their victim knew at their hands. not sayin the plastic bag is humane but did they carry out their crime with a lethal injection and watch their victim fall to sleep and not wake up? prolly not

[Sasha]

I don't agree. I think those people need to see that person die thinking its going to fill the vacancy that was left behind by their loved one. I think victims families believe it will bring them some sorta peace and I truely don't believe that is what they feel when its over they are just unable to distinguish the difference while they are greiving and for some families that is a life long process.

[StAnkY]

really? i dont think most people would be able to do it jen. i dont think i could but then again i may feel different if it were my wife or kids

[1$ikbITCH]

Again, closure for the family is nice and all, but we just need to make it clear to everyone that if you break the law, you will die; and not in 20 years, but NOW. Some people have a deathwish, and there's nothing you can do about that.
But others who are just coming up on the streets and starting to get sucked into the life could benefit from seeing other murderous criminals lose their heads on live tv (Damn yo, that dude was slinging rocks on my block just last week!). Might make them think twice before deciding to become a drug dealing punk and stay in school instead.

[Artis]

kill them all

[1$ikbITCH]

Here is a perfect example of prime candidates for execution. Every last one of them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4549600.stm,

[Artis]

geezus. what the fuck is wrong with people? for fucksake

[Pallidrone]

geezus. what the fuck is wrong with people? for fucksake


People suck and the less that are on this earth, the better.

[Artis]

people do suck but im not really into things like genocide. :P

[BuddhaMan]

The Bird Flu Pandemic will rid us of some Earth occupants, but it can't be targeted against the evil-doers.

[Pallidrone]

people do suck but im not really into things like genocide. :P

Well techincally it would not be genocide. We are talking about wiping the earth clean of everyone.. I would be all for that.

Just wipe every single person from the face of the earth, save only a handful, and start the entire process all over again.

I like to call it "savage extermination of populace" instead of 'genocide'. It has a nice ring to it.

[Sasha]

and you would end up right where you are today. There is always deviance.

[Artis]

yes but palli's sexual deviance knows no bounds. palli is the KING of the dirty sanchez.