World War III

[1$ikbITCH]

Fact: Hezbollah seized this opportunity to try to get Israel to bomb the shit out of Lebanon and incite international hatred of Israel.

Fact: We all know Israel is an asshole anyhow, and it doesn't matter. Who's going to attack Israel in defense of Lebanon, Iran, or Syria? Nobody.

Fact: Iraq was a prelude to this. Now the US controls or has access to the Iraqi border of both Syria and Iran. I have held the position for a long time that we invaded Iraq to set up for this very scenario.

It was happening sooner or later. And now gas will hit $5.00 a gallon in even the cheapest areas, $10.00 in some like LA and NY. Good.
We need to be pushed out of depending on oil, and the sooner the better. Hopefully we will rachet up the drive for alternative fuels that much faster.

Its funny how priorities change.

[Pallidrone]

I have always had the thought that we invaded Iraq to controls it borders so we could go after the real enemy, Iran.

[[K.E.]Star Craft]

Dude, Theres Kids on here, And i bet Half of us have no clue what your talking about.

[BuddhaMan]

lol...time to grow up then and get half a fkn clue. Do some Middle East geography homework first.

[LightBringer]

Dependency on selling arms and other military is out of hand. Chinese engineer techs are all over the place in Iran fixing and working on their arms, while we do the same in other countries. We have learned absofckinglutely nothing from the 70s in regards to oil dependancey. Idiots

[1$ikbITCH]

Star Craft']Dude, Theres Kids on here, And i bet Half of us have no clue what your talking about.

I am talking about your future, son. I suggest you pay attention. That way when you get drafted and sent off to some Middle East country, you'll at least have a clue why.

I always wanted to call someone "son" on an internet board :P

[Artis]

syria has offered lebanon military assistance.

humanity has limitless amounts of stupidity. its a wonder we arent all dead already.

[=DBA=Ronin]

Time to crack open the crude oil reserves again I reckon....and blow the dust off of the silo's. This is going to get much worse before it gets better.

[LightBringer]

Sometimes you just gotta let them fight for a while to realize how stupid they have become to fight for what is really of no use or possibility of acheiving some fanatical goal. We just have to realize who is buying and who is selling and the purpose. For Russia, their economy is in the sewer, North Koreans are fanatics, China has good economy but NEED oil. China is trying to buy the oil field just west of Key West ffs. The terrorists as we know them are players that are mad because they don't like how the money is being spent or channeled which is the US, ergo fanatically thinking it's the jewish community handling their finances. This isn't brought up too much since we are as guilty of selling military arms as they are. lol

[SealClubber]

I always wanted to call someone "son" on an internet board :P


It makes you sound "old" lol.

:P

[LightBringer]

It makes you sound "old" lol.

:P

he's one sick bitch:whip: :amazing:

[Beo]

humanity has limitless amounts of stupidity. its a wonder we arent all dead already.

Agreed.

Do you really think this is inciting international hatred for Israel? Or are more countries sympathetic to them for "defending themselves"?

[LightBringer]

hatred from only the stupid which are many :(. Hell, they want to punish miss indonesia for wearing a bikini. wtf bass ackwards idiots are they????? oh well, i guess i'm being obtuse as well. lol

[Sasha]

I have always had the thought that we invaded Iraq to controls it borders so we could go after the real enemy, Iran.

I have always agreed with this assumption as well. The U.S. has been looking for a way to regain control of the Iranian Goverment since we lost control. The western world will never do anything more than slap Israel on the wrist regardless of what they do. Given the powerful Jewish lobby in America and the religious ties to the western world, Israel is no danger of losing support.

[1$ikbITCH]

I have always agreed with this assumption as well. The U.S. has been looking for a way to regain control of the Iranian Goverment since we lost control. The western world will never do anything more than slap Israel on the wrist regardless of what they do. Given the powerful Jewish lobby in America and the religious ties to the western world, Israel is no danger of losing support.

Thank God for that!

[crom]

I don't think most of the world thinks Israel is defending themselves this time because of how hard they have hit Lebanon back. They don't really seem to care about collateral damage, and the United States has basically given them a blank check to do what they want. We know that it's much easier to let Israel do our fighting for us in that section of the world, while we can support them from Iraq.

Israel has said they have dropped leaflets and let the Lebanese people know to get out of the south, yet they bomb the roads and routes out of there, so people are trapped taking shelter in buildings that are being attacked. The United States has absolutely no clout now when it comes to foreign relations, particularly in the islamic world. We shattered it when we put Iraqi prisoners in homosexual posistions and tortured them.

I could see Syria and Iran joining forces to attack Israel. Noth Korea taking the advantage of the United States being off balance by either shipping a nuke to Iran, or hitting South Korea or Japan. Welcome to WWIII.

[LightBringer]

The 48 hour cease-fire was just broken by Israel too. It looks really bad for Israel, but Israel is really kicking ass :gunner:

We sell weaps to Israel, and Russia,China, and N. Korea (small China), sell weapons to the "bad guys".



It has went from "Cold War" to "Sold War".

[1$ikbITCH]

I don't think most of the world thinks Israel is defending themselves this time because of how hard they have hit Lebanon back. They don't really seem to care about collateral damage, and the United States has basically given them a blank check to do what they want. We know that it's much easier to let Israel do our fighting for us in that section of the world, while we can support them from Iraq.

Israel has said they have dropped leaflets and let the Lebanese people know to get out of the south, yet they bomb the roads and routes out of there, so people are trapped taking shelter in buildings that are being attacked. The United States has absolutely no clout now when it comes to foreign relations, particularly in the islamic world. We shattered it when we put Iraqi prisoners in homosexual posistions and tortured them.

I could see Syria and Iran joining forces to attack Israel. Noth Korea taking the advantage of the United States being off balance by either shipping a nuke to Iran, or hitting South Korea or Japan. Welcome to WWIII.

So fucking what about Lebanese civilians. Nobody gives a crap about the Israeli civilians being bombed every single day by Hezbollah while the Lebanese government does nothing. Not once do you hear any outrage anywhere about the poor Israeli civilians living in bomb shelters and being terrorized day after day.

And when you think about it, if Israel truly didn't care about civilian casualties, it would be much much worse. The way Israel handles their business, all of Lebanon would be scorched earth by now, everyone in the whole country dead, and they'd be telling the rest of the world to bring it on.

The truth of the matter is that Hezbollah sets up rockets in the midst of civilian areas and then shoots any civilian that tries to leave. After the Israeli airstrike occurs, they toss all the bodies of the people they shot into the rubble along with a few childrens toys and then say the Israelis did it.

This is not reported by the media because the media is not allowed access until the scene is ready and the Hezbollah minders allow them in, but it is reported in some of the anonymous blogs coming out of Lebanon. People are afraid to speak the truth for fear of reprisal.

Hezbollah has a long history of kidnapping, torturing, and murdering innocent civilians. Plane hijackings, carbombings, and now missiles being fired into villages with the sole intent of killing more civilians.

If you are Israel, Hezbollah must be completely obliterated at ALL costs.

[1$ikbITCH]

Here are some blogs of Lebanese people backing up my post. Of course many Lebanese (especially Shia Muslims) will not say a bad word against Hezbollah and blame everything on Israel and the US, but some people tell it like it is:

http://www.cedarsawakening.blogspot.com/

http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/personal-opinions/hizbullah-s-filthy-methods/

[crom]

So fucking what about Lebanese civilians. Nobody gives a crap about the Israeli civilians being bombed every single day by Hezbollah while the Lebanese government does nothing. Not once do you hear any outrage anywhere about the poor Israeli civilians living in bomb shelters and being terrorized day after day.

And when you think about it, if Israel truly didn't care about civilian casualties, it would be much much worse. The way Israel handles their business, all of Lebanon would be scorched earth by now, everyone in the whole country dead, and they'd be telling the rest of the world to bring it on.

The truth of the matter is that Hezbollah sets up rockets in the midst of civilian areas and then shoots any civilian that tries to leave. After the Israeli airstrike occurs, they toss all the bodies of the people they shot into the rubble along with a few childrens toys and then say the Israelis did it.

This is not reported by the media because the media is not allowed access until the scene is ready and the Hezbollah minders allow them in, but it is reported in some of the anonymous blogs coming out of Lebanon. People are afraid to speak the truth for fear of reprisal.

Hezbollah has a long history of kidnapping, torturing, and murdering innocent civilians. Plane hijackings, carbombings, and now missiles being fired into villages with the sole intent of killing more civilians.

If you are Israel, Hezbollah must be completely obliterated at ALL costs.

Lebanon has no power to stop Hezbollah. They are a weak government that has recently been reformed. They have no control over their own nation. It's a "to hell with the civilian casualities" attitude that further erode American clout in foreign relations.

It's hard to see Israel in a good light with this one, because of how heavy their response has been on the Lebanese population. It's only going to get worse. You can thump your chest for one side or the other, the fact of the matter is that this is how world wars are started. Also, not every Lebanese person is in Hezbollah. When Israel shells the hell out of the escape routes of a city yet uses the "we gave them the chance to get out" excuse it's really weak.

I agree with you that it's bad for Hezbollah to shell Israel, but they are a terrorist group, not the Lebanese population.

[BuddhaMan]

I don't watch the news anymore, but how long will it be before you guys see a "baby milk fomula factory" (and a sign painted in english proclaiming that) being the target of an Isreali attack? That bullshit didn't work on me in Iraq and it won't in Labanon either.

[Sasha]

I agree with Sik on this one. Israel has been a scapegoat for which ever middle eastern nation that feels like crying about all the horrors committed against them by the Israelis. Bullshit. If these little terrorist groups want to start their BS, they then deserve whatever they get in return, and IF Israel didn't care, damage would be ALOT worse.

[Beo]

but how long will it be before you guys see a "baby milk fomula factory" (and a sign painted in english proclaiming that)

I just saw a picture of one of those today as a matter of fact.

I agree with 1SB, but on the otherhand I can agree with Crom. The force being used by the Israelis seems inproportionate to being a response to two soliders being kidnapped. Granted there's built up tension in that area and maybe this was the final straw, but there's seemingly a deeper motive given the response. Maybe Israel is hoping that Iran comes to Lebanon's rescue so that the US can come to Israel's rescue and have us take them out. Iran's possible nukes has been a huge concern for Israel, so maybe they think that they need to act now to beat them to the punch? Also, since the weapons of mass destruction we were looking for in Iraq are hiding in Syria (he he) WWIII is most certainly on the horizon.

As for kicking Hezbollah out, parts of the country have become very dependent on them politically and financially so maybe that's why there's reluctance to oust them.

[BuddhaMan]

Did they spell "formula" wrong too like my tired ass did yesterday? Probably so...

Beo..I mean "Raven"...*ahem* :D

What's your source of info for the whereabouts of those WMDs?

[LightBringer]

I thought they found the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq around a month ago. 500 shells full of Rison or something didn't they?

[1$ikbITCH]

Crom is one who will look into the sun and proclaim that its night time.

To try to deny that Hezbollah is firing missiles from neighborhoods and communities and then disappearing before the bombs start falling is just like saying George Bush is a great President.

From one of the blogs I linked to:


Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollah's fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes.
Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a kilometer from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back.
One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.
"This is what's happening, but no one wants to say it" for fear of Hezbollah, she said.

Everyone knows Israel is an asshole. But Arab people (generally speaking) seem to struggle mightily with admitting that their own people are just as much to blame for things as Israel or the US.

[Beo]

What's your source of info for the whereabouts of those WMDs?

Only heresay. I'm just playing into the conspiracy theories.

But I am pretty bothered by what's going on over there. Combating violence with violence is stupid. If everyone took an eye for an eye, the world would be blind.

[CDSaint]

If everyone took an eye for an eye, the world would be blind.


funny, i had the impression that is the case already...:(

[LightBringer]

the media sure as hell is blind, and stupid.

[Pallidrone]

How long until people start to blame the countries for housing these terrorists?

If you put out a hard line stance that says that if a country knowingly harbors a terrorist organization, then they are responsible for that terrorist group. If they do not rid their country of that group then they will be thought as being a terrorist state and if that group decides to do harm to another country then that country has every right to fight back against the state. I would imagine that some countries would be less likely to harbor a group knowing full well that a larger country could come in and wipe them out.

I know it is sad about the civilians, but you know something? They are doing NOTHING to better their position. They allow these groups to walk all over them and if they are swayed by the power of the group then they are just as bad as that group. End of story.

FTW!!!

[crom]

Crom is one who will look into the sun and proclaim that its night time.

To try to deny that Hezbollah is firing missiles from neighborhoods and communities and then disappearing before the bombs start falling is just like saying George Bush is a great President.

Everyone knows Israel is an asshole. But Arab people (generally speaking) seem to struggle mightily with admitting that their own people are just as much to blame for things as Israel or the US.

I don't see why me saying that the Lebanese people aren't all Hezbollah is a misguided statement. Please explain to me why it isn't. Also explain to me why the targeting of innocents is a good thing and a way to win this "war". Collateral damage is a given in war, no doubt, but the flagrant disregard for innocents by Israel is just stupid. I also never denied that Hezbollah was firing missles into Israel. Both actions are wrong, pure and simple. The difference is that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, not the Lebanese population. If Israel is so high and mighty they would be better hitting the truly bad governments in the middle east, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

[1$ikbITCH]

The only one targeting civilians is Hezbollah. Israel is targeting missile launchers. Hezbollah chooses to put civilians in harms' way by firing rockets from in their midst, and then forcing them to stay and be bombed.

You keep ignoring all of that and proclaiming that Israel is TARGETING civilians. That's a load of BS.

[crom]

The only one targeting civilians is Hezbollah. Israel is targeting missile launchers. Hezbollah chooses to put civilians in harms' way by firing rockets from in their midst, and then forcing them to stay and be bombed.

You keep ignoring all of that and proclaiming that Israel is TARGETING civilians. That's a load of BS.

And there are missle launchers in Beruit? Explain that one to me, because absolutely no missles came from Beruit because they are all short range missles. It looks like you're the one looking at the sun and calling it evening.

[1$ikbITCH]

We were talking about Qana and other places where Hezbollah fires rockets from. Now in an attempt to detour around that subject, you bring up Beruit. Very well.

Hezbollah has headquarters and operations in Beruit. Why would they send missiles from their own strongholds? They wouldn't. Israel has every right to bomb their strongholds. The civilians should leave the warzone. Again, if Israel was truly "targeting civilians" as is your stance, all of Beruit would be completely leveled and everyone inside would be charred corpses. Are you not familiar with Sabra and Shatilla? Israel does not fuck around. If they were targeting civilians, we would be mourning the loss of 4 million people right now and Lebanon would be history.

They are targeting Hezbollah, who is collectively hiding behind women and children. How pathetic and embarrassing.

I completely agree that Israel is an asshole and should realize that military might will never win the war they fight. That does not take away the fact that Hezbollah was born killing and kidnapping civilians, and have continued to do so their entire existance. Therefore whatever Israel does to Hezbollah, I am all for it.

Finally:

On D-Day, thousands of Allied bombs reigned down on France and killed thousands of civilians. Did the civilians announce their support for Hitler? No they cheered the Allies and showered them with kisses and thanks when they liberated their cities from the Nazis. The only difference here is cultural bias towards Hezbollah because they are Muslims and the Israelis are Jews. Nothing more.

[crom]

We were talking about Qana and other places where Hezbollah fires rockets from. Now in an attempt to detour around that subject, you bring up Beruit. Very well.

Hezbollah has headquarters and operations in Beruit. Why would they send missiles from their own strongholds? They wouldn't. Israel has every right to bomb their strongholds. The civilians should leave the warzone. Again, if Israel was truly "targeting civilians" as is your stance, all of Beruit would be completely leveled and everyone inside would be charred corpses. Are you not familiar with Sabra and Shatilla? Israel does not fuck around. If they were targeting civilians, we would be mourning the loss of 4 million people right now and Lebanon would be history.

They are targeting Hezbollah, who is collectively hiding behind women and children. How pathetic and embarrassing.

I completely agree that Israel is an asshole and should realize that military might will never win the war they fight. That does not take away the fact that Hezbollah was born killing and kidnapping civilians, and have continued to do so their entire existance. Therefore whatever Israel does to Hezbollah, I am all for it.

Finally:

On D-Day, thousands of Allied bombs reigned down on France and killed thousands of civilians. Did the civilians announce their support for Hitler? No they cheered the Allies and showered them with kisses and thanks when they liberated their cities from the Nazis. The only difference here is cultural bias towards Hezbollah because they are Muslims and the Israelis are Jews. Nothing more.

I wasn't trying to change the topic or divert focus, this is a multi-front war, no question about it. I never said that Israel was directly targeting civilians. What I meant by "targeting innocents" earlier was they were hitting urban areas where there was a high chance of collateral damage. If there are Al Queda cells in New York city do you bomb the hell out of the buildings there, killing a lot around them to get them? Or do you send in ground troops, to minimize collateral damage? Of course you send in the ground forces. Airstrikes are great against convoys, bunkers, etc, but when you're going after heavily populated areas, they should have sent in commandos to do the job. That's how you would show the world you do care about the population and minimize collateral damage. Also if you hit a bunker and women and children are killed you can point to Hezbollah as cowards in creating human shields.

I don't have any problem with them hitting bunkers or rockets, they absolutely have a right to defend themselves, it's just the lack of foresight to prevent collateral damage that not only hurts the people of Lebanon, it also hurts Israel AND the United States diplomatically.

Regarding civilians leaving a warzone, the problem is that the civilians COULDN'T leave. Israel cut off every means of transportation for them to get out, blowing up bridges, roads, and air transport. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

My big problem with this whole thing is that it's playing right into the hands of Iran. This war makes Hezbollah appear to be heroes in the eyes of the Arabic world and pulling more moderates over to the radical cause. Not only that, it diverts focus off of Iran's nuclear program. (A tactic they pulled from the Bush administration. Divert attention away from a problem by creating chaos elsewhere.)

[1$ikbITCH]

Problem with ground troops is that you can't win a ground war with terrorists hiding in cribs, hospitals and mosques, and launching RPG's at you from the back of ambulances. You're better off just bombing the shit out of everything from afar and hoping the Lebanese people finally get tired of it and kick the terrorists out.

Israel has ZERO chance of winning a ground war against Hezbollah, or any war for that matter. All they can do is make the Lebanese people realize that if Hezbollah attacks Israel from Lebanon, the consequences will be extremely devastating. Israel's only hope is that the Lebanese people finally tell Hezbollah "You're not bringing that wrath on this country ever again".

The Middle East has always been a no-win situation for Israel. They are never going to win, and so might as well keep their soldiers safe and just drop bombs from afar.

Religion is the root of all evil.

Edit - There is another scenario where Israel will win (sort of).

Israel gets Syria and Iran to attack, and then the US comes in from Iraq's border and together Israel and the US crush both countries in a fiery gauntlet of death.

I wish we could have a real President and just keep Bush on a leash in the basement, to unleash on our enemies when we needed it.

[LightBringer]

I don't see how Iran can attack, but I guess you know something I don't.

[1$ikbITCH]

Don't think Syria and Iran haven't been plotting together.

[Artis]

Agreed.

Do you really think this is inciting international hatred for Israel? Or are more countries sympathetic to them for "defending themselves"?

I think that Israel will always be hated for the right and wrong reasons because they are where they are; surrounded by people who view their own religion as being in direct opposition to a Jewish state. They are surrounded by people who have no problem with Israel as well, but there are still a lot who aren't a fan of a forced Israeli state on land they view as their own. I think that Israel is Israel and the U.S. sometimes helps to push Israel in one direction or another but when it comes to feeling threatened Israel is its own master. I think a lot of people, in the western world at least, are able to differentiate this. However, in countries where the U.S. is hated this can only put us further behind the curve.

There is no doubt that people are being terrorized on both sides by incoming missiles and bombings. However, while Hezbollah is trying mightily to hit anyone and everyone while firing 100+ rockets a day they are only injuring a few and killing less because those rockets are terribly inaccurate. Israel has one of the best trained and best equipped militaries in the world and their rockets and air strikes hit their targets nearly every time. This is why the disparity in how many people have been killed on either side is occurring.

Having said this though it does appear that Lebanese lives are more expendable than Israeli lives but its not for lack of trying on the part of Hezbollah.

As far as Hezbollah mingling in with civilians, I read an article that said this is mostly untrue. Most of the Israeli soldiers coming back from Lebanon say that most areas are all but deserted BUT for Hezbollah militia. Maybe the rocket firing is a different situation. So who knows.

Lets not pretend here that Israel and Hezbollah are equal in anything military. Hezbollah is well organized , well trained and well equipped....for a terrorist organization. Israel is a small country with military might. The only reason this has lasted as long as it has is because Hezbollah is practicing guerilla warfare.

I think its important to separate the Lebanese people from Hezbollah. Israel shouldn't punch the guy standing next to the person who shoved them.

Also, while Hezbollah is a terrorist organization they are also the third largest employer in Lebanon when you take into account civil and public services, schools, and hospitals. Israel is bombing those too btw. This isn't a small organization but a HUGE one they are trying to eliminate.

Palli, I find your justification for killing Lebanese civlians way off base. It sounds logical but saying that the Lebanese people do nothing when they can do everything if they didn't want Hezbollah in their country is naive. Did it occur to you that maybe its a losing battle and that no matter how hard they try that they just plainly haven't been successful and that Hezbollah is as much a part of Lebanon as any single other group or organization. It would be like the U.S. kicking out all the Catholics. I think that would be pretty difficult to do. Don't you?

The Lebanese military, if they had one worth mentioning, cannot remove Hezbollah even if their heart was in it.

As a parallel, 100 civilians die every day in Iraq.

[1$ikbITCH]

Artis you just contridicted yourself.

You said "think its important to separate the Lebanese people from Hezbollah. Israel shouldn't punch the guy standing next to the person who shoved them", indicating that Hezbollah is just some military organization with no ties or connection and certainly not a part of Lebanon. So why attack Lebanon?

Then in the very next paragraph you say: "...Hezbollah is as much a part of Lebanon as any single other group or organization." indicating that Lebanon attacked Israel, not just some guy standing next to them.

Which is it?

Look at it this way. You have an unruly tenant living in your house. Every day he shoots out your neighbors' windows, throws rocks at their children, and flattens their car tires. Do you expect your neighbors to just ignore it because he's in your house and they don't want to hurt you or your house? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Kraq/15524803-Ti.gif

[Artis]

Its already been stated that "collateral damage" is unavoidable in any sort of conflict. Both statements I made are true. Israel should not punish civilians if they can at all help it. Hezbollah is not just 15,000 armed men, its women and children and the elderly. Hezbollah is not your typical terrorist organization. Its much more than a military. When Israel attacks they aren't just hurting those who choose to fight but everyone else including those with no ties to Hezbollah. My statement above was in response to this "well they are all guilty by association and get what they deserve" mindset.

Using your example of the unruly houseguest. What if that houseguest had more power than you did and you were helpless to control them? When retribution comes from your neighbor should you be punished as much as your houseguest? I don't think so.

I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself or that they were acting completely innapropriately. I was arguing against the idea that says its ok to hurt the innocent when you feel threatened. When you hurt the innocent you are as guilty as your attacker.

[1$ikbITCH]

1. Hezbollah fighters are not running around wearing uniforms. Therefore every single fatality is a "civilian". You (and the media) assume without question that they really are civilians. Nobody knows for sure.

2. If your houseguest is killing your neighbors, your neighbors have every right to protect themselves and destroy the houseguest no matter what. Period. If you don't want to go down with him, either kick him out or leave.
Hezbollah hides among children and counts on people like you to say that Israel should not retaliate. That's BS.
And now the Lebanese government has told the UN that they'd rather live with terrorists than fight to have them eradicated. They signed their own death warrant.

3. Nobody over there is innocent. I haven't heard one story of a village attacking Hezbollah fighters who were preparing to fire rockets from their village. For 20 years they've allowed Hezbollah to grow and train and prepare for the day when they would attack Israel again. Now that time has come, and everyone's saying "oh poor me". Fuck em. They got the leaflets.

[1$ikbITCH]

Another thing that I think most people do not really understand:

Lebanon is split up into 3 different factions. The Shiites (Hezbollah and Hezbollah supporters), Druse (http://www.religioustolerance.org/druse.htm), and Maronite Christians. We don't hear much from the Druse, but the Christians are very much for Israel taking out Hezbollah, and Hezbollah has already announced on Al Jazeera that they would retaliate against Lebanese people (the Christians) and government officials who speak out against them now.

When you get a couple minutes, read this article by a Lebanese Presidential candidate:


Who Is Really at War? The Patterns So Far.
By Chibli Mallat, Lebanon

Three weeks into the war between Israel and Hezbollah, some patterns have emerged. In the first week, Israeli security officials declared that they wanted to bomb Lebanon back 50 years, and indeed destroyed over 40 bridges across the country in the first few days, as well as a large number of factories, over 30 according to the Association of Lebanese Industrialists. Then the targets changed radically.

Clearly prompted by the United States, the Israeli government announced an objective alliance with the Lebanese government on the latter’s exclusive sovereignty over its territory and borders. Israel then acted accordingly in its warfare. On a handful of occasions, which have puzzled the observers, Lebanese army points were targeted, but non-Hezbollah areas were rarely hit. The map of destruction was characteristically Shiite; only few missiles were fired in other areas. In Beirut, destruction was limited to a perimeter of about one and half square kilometer, now known as the security quadrangle, which consists of a small, poorer section in the Shiite suburbs, where Hezbollah’s sway has been historically dominant.

I went on Tuesday to see for myself that area of Beirut where I had been a guest on the Manar TV station a few times before 2004. Some of the neighborhoods have been bombed to Ground-Zero-like lunar places, with ten-story buildings reduced to rubble. It is hard not to feel sad at the sites.

Much destruction can also be found in the south of the country — from Tyre to the Blue Line, and various parts of the western Bekaa, close to the border, and in the historic city of Baalbeck, which lies much further north.

This is a Hezbollah-Israel war, but sociologically it is a Lebanese Shiite-Israeli Jewish war. Probably 90 percent of the people who fled their homes in Lebanon — some 800,000 people by United Nations accounts — are Shiite. This represents nearly a quarter of the Lebanese people. I suspect close to 95 percent of the more than 800 Lebanese killed so far are Shiite. Camp Palestinians also have remained outside the main war zone. So have Syria and Iran.

Consequences of this glaring split on the domestic Lebanese situation are difficult to fathom, and all politicians have rightly endeavored to manifest a patriotic sympathy for the plight of Shiite Lebanese. Politically, such contradictions will in time be more difficult to paper over.

For my part, I do not find it healthy to carry on with a dual language, which is deafening in most Lebanese political circles — wishing wholeheartedly for Hezbollah’s military defeat, while professing in grand speeches a desire for unity. I feel strongly about the suffering of my Lebanese compatriots, as I do about Israelis’ suffering by-and-large. And I take pride in non-Shiites opening their homes and offering hospitality to the refugees. I prefer, however, to voice my open disagreement with Hezbollah over the start of the war and the way it is being prosecuted. I think that candidness in times of violence and death on such a scale is needed, and that the narrowing of the gap between private and public talk in politics will yield a far healthier result in due course, and will help accelerate a workable cease-fire.

On Friday morning, Lebanon awoke to the destruction of one power plant four bridges north of Beirut, all outside the Shiite areas, cutting the capital off from the north. Concern will grow high: is a new pattern emerging?

[crom]

Problem with ground troops is that you can't win a ground war with terrorists hiding in cribs, hospitals and mosques, and launching RPG's at you from the back of ambulances. You're better off just bombing the shit out of everything from afar and hoping the Lebanese people finally get tired of it and kick the terrorists out.

Israel has ZERO chance of winning a ground war against Hezbollah, or any war for that matter. All they can do is make the Lebanese people realize that if Hezbollah attacks Israel from Lebanon, the consequences will be extremely devastating. Israel's only hope is that the Lebanese people finally tell Hezbollah "You're not bringing that wrath on this country ever again".

The Middle East has always been a no-win situation for Israel. They are never going to win, and so might as well keep their soldiers safe and just drop bombs from afar.

Religion is the root of all evil.

Edit - There is another scenario where Israel will win (sort of).

Israel gets Syria and Iran to attack, and then the US comes in from Iraq's border and together Israel and the US crush both countries in a fiery gauntlet of death.

I wish we could have a real President and just keep Bush on a leash in the basement, to unleash on our enemies when we needed it.

You can't win a war or change the people's minds with constant bombardments and airstrikes either. I would think Iraq has proven that. You only strengthen their resolve. They see Israel as an aggressor and Hezbollah as their defenders. Much like the rest of the Arab world sees the Palestinians. I'm not saying what Hezbollah is doing is right, I'm simply saying that Israel won't win this war with airstrikes, or completely destroying Lebanon as a nation turning it more into Afganistan. The further you destabilize a region, the greater chance it will become a haven for terrorists, or a rallying cry to pull moderates to an extremeist cause.

A ground war will be very bloody and costly for both sides, but Israel can prove that, by doing so, they are concerned about collateral damage, and that they are defending themselves.

I don't think religion is the root to all evil, I think radical idealism is. Hitler wasn't a particularly religious man.

It's true that Hezbollah is getting their weapons and support from Iran, and this is another proxy war between the USA and Iran. However if Tehran gets some nukes from North Korea or Pakistan, that could change the face of the war. Tel Aviv would be annihilated, and both sides would suffer horridly. I don't think either wants that. Diplomacy is what is needed here, and Bush and his advisors are too pig headed and stupid to see this. What they've done with their current foreign policy has crippled American influence for a long long time.

[Artis]

I don't believe I have said anywhere that Israel did not have the right to defend itself if they feel threatened. Do you not see any moral conundrum in the amount of people killed on each side? Do you have no sympathy for the non-Hezbollah victims in Lebanon? The media has been ripping Israel, this is true, but we both know they are suffering as well and deserve our sympathy.

I find it hard to believe that of the approximately 800,000 Lebanese Shiites in southern Lebanon that all of them support Hezbollah.

[1$ikbITCH]

I don't have sympathy for Israeli victims or Lebanese victims. The Israelis choose to stay and fight over a piece of land with some bullshit religious meaning, and the Lebanese have known for 20 years that they were growing a monster that would someday start a new war. Do you think they are surprised this is happening? No, they all knew it and chose to let it happen. As I said before oh well.

I have more compassion for the people in Africa who have been getting slaughtered by the thousands for the last few decades with barely a mention in the news. I'm surprised there is anyone left on that continent.

If you want to feel bad for somebody, feel bad for them.

[1$ikbITCH]

You can't win a war or change the people's minds with constant bombardments and airstrikes either.

Israel has no chance of winning this war no matter what. Why waste the lives of their own soldiers when the outcome is pre-ordained? From a military standpoint a groundwar is stupid. You just can't reason with these people.

And since you mentioned Iraq; that was a no-win situation as well, and yeah Bush was a dumbass for going in there expecting anything less than Shiites and Sunnis slaughtering each other. They've been doing that for a thousands years or more and I doubt it will ever stop until one side is eradicated. Democracy is a joke to these people; all they seem to respect and cherish is war and death.

It pisses me off that a lot of these people have such a disregard for life and it admittedly makes me feel that same way towards them sometimes.

[crom]

It pisses me off that a lot of these people have such a disregard for life and it admittedly makes me feel that same way towards them sometimes.

They see us in exactly the same way. That's what we need to overcome to really work on lasting peace in the middle east. Once the oil is gone, nobody aside from the ultra religious are going to even care about that region of the world anymore.

[1$ikbITCH]

Yeah so why should we care about them now. We don't work on lasting peace in Africa either.

[crom]

Because of terrorism. If we want to stop terrorism, and are really serious in doing so, we need to focus on areas that are the root of it and then work diplomatically to change it. Once the oil is gone the middle east will be worse than it currently is. The problem is our government cares more about oil profits and pandering than they do about actually fighting the "war" they are so righteous about.

[1$ikbITCH]

Let's be frank about this.

Israel has long tried to terrorize the Palestinians into giving up their own terrorism, and now are trying to terrorize the Lebanese civilians into getting rid of Hezbollah.

Meanwhile, for 20 years Hezbollah and Hamas have been kidnapping civilians, blowing up buses, and are now firing missiles into civilian areas. Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel.

India and Pakistan have been sponsoring terrorist attacks against each other for decades, terrorists have been operating in the Middle East since the late 40's, and we even armed and trained them in Afganistan.

They are all terrorists. So saying we want to get rid of terrorists is BS. We just want to get rid of the terrorists who are currently at odds with our policies. Same thing with dictators. We want dictators who are friendly to us, such as the House of Saud. We helped Saddam Hussein for pete's sake. People think Israel is the root of the world's hatred of the US, but that's just the latest episode in a long list of fucked up things we've done.

[Artis]

People think Israel is the root of the world's hatred of the US, but that's just the latest episode in a long list of fucked up things we've done.

roger that.

[crom]

You'll get no arugment from me there.

[1$ikbITCH]

Dammit now what :gernade:

[crom]

Dunno... uhh... your mom dresses you funny!

[LightBringer]

now what? wtf do something about it. stop talking and start pissin.

[Artis]

*artis pisses all over lightbring, crom and sikbitch.

haha
ok so i was typing that and i was on the phone with a user from work and she was telling me something and i started to say "roger that" all because i am on btp. ha.

[Beo]

Arty is a nerrrrrd. :D

[crom]

Golden showers! YES!

[Pallidrone]

We are the only country in the world that would be able to go into complete isolation and survive.

I would love to see us do that and say a big FUCK YOU to everyone else. Let the rest of the world fight themselves and kill themselves off.

[LightBringer]

I'll drink to that!

[Sasha]

I honestly wonder if that is true Palli, the US has become VERYdependent on a Global market for the purchasing and selling of goods. Not that we would ever do that, but there would be some big economic ramifications if we ever did.

[Pallidrone]

I honestly wonder if that is true Palli, the US has become VERYdependent on a Global market for the purchasing and selling of goods. Not that we would ever do that, but there would be some big economic ramifications if we ever did.


What goods however? If you really think about it, this country is the only one capable of growing and producing everything that it needs. We have enough farmland and cattle to feed our citizens. Oil can be obtained from the fields in Texas and Alaska.

We sell to other countries to make money. We buy from countries because it is cheaper. Money is what drives all that, not the ability to do it.

We are only depended on other countries because we allow ourselves to be depended. If we change the mindset of the people in this country and actually start working for each other instead of ourselves, we could cut off the rest of the world and be fine.

[Sasha]

Not in a captalistic society where money is the bottom dollar. Importing cheaper products allows us, the buyers, a more competitive and affordable way of purchasing what we need. Isolation would drive up the cost of living. Our natural resources would only last so long.. (looking at it from a long term point of view)

We are very capable of supporting ourselves, at a very expensive cost.

[Pallidrone]

Yes it would, if we used capitalism as the main economic formula. If there was a modified form of capitalism, a hybrid of communism and capitalism, there is no reason why we would not be able to survive.

What is money but rocks and paper anyway.